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Thread: Six months of recruiting

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    can't post; too scared Anonymous's Avatar
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    Default Six months of recruiting

    This is not really a support issue, but rather a thread to vent and get some things off my chest without resultant flaming (in this forum at least). Those of you who post here regularly know who I am, but I am posting this anonymously to protect my identity from others who may surf in.

    First off, I love the military. Work hard, play hard, earn excellent pay and benefits for what I do. Been there done that for a few different sides of the military and now I have been detailed as a Recruiter. This job should be easy, and it is in certain places. Hours are great (for the time being), I love interacting with the public and sharing experiences, not to mention trying to make a difference in people's lives. That said, I differ from many other Recruiters in that I do not consider myself a "salesman". The military is not for everyone and I do not believe I should have to "sell" anything to the public. Our record speaks for itself. I will gladly sit down and discuss options, benefits and share my own story. I will also help to mentor young men and women and guide them towards their goals. If someone decides to take another course, so be it. I still get paid the same regardless. I do not lie awake at night worrying about having a job in the morning if I don't make a quota or meet my boss' expectations.

    That aside, let me talk about some of the trends I am noticing. Some sadden me while others damn near piss me off:

    Drugs: I don't judge. Many people have smoked pot and more than a few have done more serious drugs. Be straightforward and honest about it. Don't lie and say you haven't smoked for months then turn up positive on a drug screen. It is a waste of my time and yours, not to mention taxpayer money. Similarly, don't suddenly recall you did cocaine back in 1988 at MEPS after you swore to me that you never did anything illegal. Of everyone I know both in and out of the military there are only a handful who have never tried anything illegal. All the holier than thou bullshit is just that. Fess up, don't be ashamed, but be smart. That's all there is to it.

    Criminal charges: "I've never been arrested." Until the police records check comes back with three pages. Tell me out front. If you can't join, you can't join. If you might be able to join I will do what I can. Also, the questions we ask tell you to include charges that were dismissed, expunged, etc, etc, etc. Basically, if you have ever had any interaction with the police or justice system, I need to know. Background investigators are good at finding stuff you don't tell us and we don't find. Someone will eventually find out if you joined under false pretenses. If you make through an enlistment or career after lying about criminal history, count yourself lucky.

    "Last resort": One of the things that sadden me. A kid comes in wanting to join. He is in his early twenties and says this is his last resort. There is always something to it. On probation and/or convicted of a felony, possession of narcotics, domestic abuse, a dropout without a GED, or just plain unable to score well on the ASVAB. Regardless, I feel sorry for these poor kids who told themselves for years that the military would always take them only to find out that we want nothing to do with them. The military is one of the harder "jobs" to get. Especially now, if you are not a high school grad with a clean record, it will be hard to get in. We do an extensive background check going back ten years, drug screening, physical, aptitude test, and other screening methods to ensure that today's military is smarter and fights harder than any previous iteration. It is a last resort only for those few who stay clean and smart long enough to realize they need to join.

    Prior service Part I: I for one appreciate the fact that you volunteered one or more times in the past. I am also of the opinion that you should have stayed in. Many people get out and find that they really didn't have it too bad in uniform. Others get out and become quite successful but wish to re-enter for whatever reason. When people aren't joining, prior service might get a choice of jobs and even a bonus. Right now, they aren't. If you had a nice desk job during eight years in the military then got out to become a security guard, don't gripe when you are only offered Infantry to come back in. The military will commit to its best and brightest members. Those members that do not commit to the military break that trust. While I don't necessarily agree with it, I can't say I blame the powers that be for wanting to save the more technical and "better" jobs for young men and women straight out of high school or college. After all, if you took the money and ran once, why spend the money to retrain you in another skill? Note that this does not apply to those men and women who get out to go to college, then wish to rejoin as officers.

    "Go to war or go to jail": Another misconception. This kind of goes hand in hand with the "last resort" and criminal charges, but we get more than a few people who seem to think that the military is a magic cure-all for outstanding warrants, pending cases, recent arrests, house arrest, and probation. It is not. Recruiters are prohibited from attempting to influence any judge, attorney or other member of the judicial process. Reap what you sow. If it turns out to be a big harvest, don't turn to me to get you off. Nine times out of ten you wouldn't qualify regardless.

    College: Face it, not everyone will go to college. Not everyone that starts college will finish it. Lack of motivation or discipline, financial concerns and failure to maintain grades are just some of the factors. One of the more frustrating aspects of being a Recruiter is listening to kids who say the party line, "I'm going to college." They might be graduating in a week and have no idea which college they want to attend, never took the SAT or ACT, haven't thought about how to pay for it, and barely made it through high school with a C average. Yet they are all going to college. Every...last...one of them. A few years down the line they might fit into one of the categories I spoke about above.

    Overprotective parents/stuck-up kids: Most of these automatically fall into the College category. The parent's "baby" WILL be going to college and will NOT be joining the military. I am not here to lead a teenager down the wrong path. My motto is that knowledge is free and that even the most fervently anti-military families should at least sit down and talk with me. It is a big decision. My leaders may not like it, but I will not hesitate to sit down with someone I know will not be joining. The thing is, it seems the most open-minded kids who agree to sit down despite having solid plans have the most overprotective parents. Having a father or mother get hostile because their seventeen or eighteen year old son made a mature decision to learn about the military seems to be setting that kid up for failure. Children learn from everything, and sheltering a soon-to-be adult isn't healthy in my lowly opinion. As a father myself, the last thing I will do is limit my child's opportunities due to some petty impression I have. As a parent, if you are concerned that I am a silver-tongued devil, sit down with us. In fact I always ask highschoolers to include their parents during the appointment. If you have no intention to join, at least you will walk away with a better idea of what the military is and isn't. While you may not join yourself, my theory is that you might have a decent enough impression to refer a friend who doesn't have a good plan in life.

    Prior service Part II: The bad 'uns. Some people leave the military with a bad taste in their mouths (some quite literally). No one's experience is all-encompassing. Very few of us who complete our enlistments honorably will bad mouth our service. We will share both the good and the bad. Even as a Recruiter I do this. My good times have far eclipsed my bad ones, but I will not glaze over going a week without food or hearing the crack of rounds inches from my head. Young men and women are impressionable. They will listen to everyone, and I have seen a few people who were convinced not to join by "friends" who were in the military at one time or another. Almost without exception, digging deeper into these "friends" service they were either discharged early or skidded by in the National Guard or Reserves. In other words, they had no idea what completing a few years of active service is like.


    INTERMISSION

    Now for part two, this will be a lot shorter but will elaborate on why some of the above topics frustrate me.

    Prior service (both parts): The military is one of the easiest jobs to keep and perform. Be where you need to be at the right time and in the right uniform. If you are not the best at your job someone will help you. If you still can't perform you will do another job. You are guaranteed a pay raise every year for your first four years and every two years after that, not to mention typically getting a cost of living raise every January. Promotions are relatively quick (in some branches faster than others, but almost always faster than comparable civilian jobs), leading to higher pay. Everyone gets the same benefits, from the newest Private to the oldest General. Sometimes it gets hard to stay in (particularly during downsizing), but for the most part doing the right thing will ensure that you have to chance to keep your job, get trained in another job, and even get a large bonus for deciding to stay in. Maintain good work ethic, strive for promotion and you can guarantee that you will have a career for at least twenty years. You can't get fired, most things that would get you discharged would net you jail time in the civilian world. If you decided to get out after one or two enlistments you have job experience, vocational training and valuable management experience that few of your non-veteran peers would have. Make the most of it whatever you do and don't go crying about getting kicked out or whining because you can only come back in as a grunt.

    College: The GI Bill is about to get much better. Even the most college-oriented families should open their eyes to this. If you don't have scholarships and are planning to work or get loans, consider the military. In August the post-9/11 GI Bill goes into effect, paying three years tuition (ie: a four-year degree) up to the maximum in-state tuition at a public university in that state. Private universities have the option of covering half of any additional tuition under the Yellow Ribbon program, with the VA paying the other half; even Yale has decided to join this program. For three years of paid active service in the military, a person so inclined could go to Yale without cost for four years, actually getting paid $2225 a month (E-5 w/dependent BAH for New Haven) for the nine months a year he/she was in school, effectively getting paid over $80,000 to earn a degree at Yale. I have a feeling more than a few future politicians will be taking advantage of this.

    Before even considering the GI Bill, there is the $4500 a year tuition assistance. I took advantage of this last year, and honestly need to do so more often. It is entirely possible for a motivated person to sign up for three years and leave with an associate's degree and a few extra credits, making it possible for the GI Bill to cover a Master's degree or beyond.







    Before this turns from a rant into a full-blown "I Want You" commercial, allow me to close with this. The military is truly not for everyone, and the US military in particular often has to fight in unpopular wars for various political reasons. I realize that I am a part of the institution now more than ever but it is still hard to believe that more young men and women and their parents don't look at the military as a means to an end as opposed to an end itself. Though I will make a career of this and have never agreed with joining the military solely to go to college, I honestly believe that using it as a stepping stone is a better choice now than ever. There are many obstacles in the path for a majority of Americans, yet seeking to better yourself should help to surpass those obstacles. Everyone has their own definition of success, and mine is nowhere near as ambitious as most. Do what it takes to be successful and live life to its fullest.

    The End whew...

  2. #2
    cowabunga
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    interesting to hear about this all-too-commonly dismissed topic from the other side

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    Funny, Sexy, Unique! StrangeTimes's Avatar
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    i'm curious, are enlistment levels increasing even the slightest with how shitty the job market is recently?
    Negroes

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    If I wasn't Diabetic the first thing I would do is enlist. Yea sure I do a lot of drugs, but that's not hard to stop(coming from experience). I didn't graduate but did very well on my GED(top 1%) ACT(cannot remember my score for the life of me) and maintained a 3.0gpa in HS. I have very little criminal record, actually all of it is expunged and I've only received one charge/citation since I turned 18.

    It's the whole disease thing that has me screwed. I'm pretty skilled in learning languages, I work my ass off, but I understand why the military would not want me in combat. I could seize out and kill all of my fellow soldiers. But still, why can I not get some kind of desk job or work on computers or machinery for the forces? Meh, I've been shot down by my disease, hell I cannot(read could not, I'm 21 now not 17) get a sports scholarship to all/most NCAA schools, especially since I was a line man who would have needed to gain 50-75lbs.
    lik dis if u cry evertim
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    Senior Member TPLefever's Avatar
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    That was definitely a good read, even for a soldier in a sweet tent in Iraq, lol. I wouldn't really consider myself to have been one of those 'last chance' people you spoke of, although I myself have a GED. I wanted for years to join the military, and did after I got my GED. It's definitely worth joining in my eyes, you get to experience thing that most people never will in a lifetime. I didn't join for college, but once my time's up, I'm going to take advantage of the GI bill. Once I'm out of the sand, I want to start doing the free college offered on post to get a start before I get out. If you care for the opinion, you seem like more than the person to do recruiting, based on this and other posts that you've made here. I really wanted to do the Corporal Recruiting myself, but that was shot down once I read that you have to have a high school diploma, or a GED with x amount of college credit hours, that I don't have and would take a while to get. I hope all goes well with your time as a recruiter, I'm sure you deserve to get away from a post for a little and interact with civilians for a while.

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    can't post; too scared Anonymous's Avatar
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    I myself have a GED, on the one hand it frustrates me to have to turn away people who have them right now; on the other hand I think I am developing a superiority complex when I deal with high school and even college graduates who are unable or barely able to get a qualifying score on the ASVAB. It took me years to get in due to the GED, though, so I remind those I have to turn away to be persistent.

    TPLefever, Are you sure you need a high school diploma or 15 credits? Check out the USAREC site, I didn't see anything on there. For the most part, if you apply you will become a Recruiter. I'm sure the Corporal program is a little more competitive, but it shouldn't be impossible. For me, all the paperwork seemed a formality. I put Recruiter in my Assignment Satisfaction Key a couple years ago, decided to go change it to Drill Sergeant and then ended up getting orders a few months later to report to Recruiter School. Many others at the school hadn't completed their "required" paperwork. This was handled for them, or they were given a chance to take care of it when they graduated. Very few were held back in the school, and only those that made it clear they did not want to be a Recruiter were sent home. In other words, if you want to go on the program, talk to your Career Counselor and ask him to help. Also, depending on how much time you have left, you might want to check if your unit offers an education incentive for reenlisting to stay with them. If it does, you can re-up for three years (adding only a year to your contract) with your commander's permission to attend college full time for a semester. I shammed out last year from May-August, taking two online courses and a much needed break. After the first reenlistment, you can get the option with two year re-ups. I've seen at least one person take advantage of the system and get three semesters of college for adding a years and a few days total to his original period of service. When he was at school, I'd see him one every couple of weeks.

    Enlistment levels have been decent, I suppose. I myself am not seeing it, but overall most branches of the military are at or over strength. Everything depends on the area; where I am at qualified people are hard to come by, in the Midwest and other areas it is supposedly much easier. A lot of people who might not join otherwise have been considering the military. Unfortunately, a few of those I've dealt with have seemed unable to commit. More than a few people will lose their job, start talking with me, then get another low-paying civilian job and stop communicating altogether. I guess in their eyes, $10/hour without benefits is better than a non-combat job in the Army making $350 a week with most living expenses covered and full benefits. Which brings me to something I forgot to mention last night:

    The Guard: I've noticed the National Guard Recruiters are very good at what they do. Almost to the point of misleading some. I had one kid good to go with a qualifying score of 36. He didn't tell me he had been sweet-talked by the National Guard into retaking the ASVAB to score the 50 they require. He got down to MEPS, they saw he had retested and scored 28, and he was sent home unable to enlist in any branch. Similarly, I got out to the high schools late in the school year. The Guard almost had a monopoly on one of them, and talking to some of the kids, they seemed thrilled they were in the "Army" and asked if I knew their Recruiter. When I replied that I am active duty, at least two of them mentioned that they were going to go active, one said he was going active as soon as he completed training and was only using the Guard to get training. Big mistake. Guard and Reserves both require a release from the unit. I've seen a couple Reservists get released but have yet to see a Guardsman. I guess many people sign up for the Guard or Reserves and find that being a part-time Soldier is not their cup of tea. You can really see it in the eyes of those who just got out of training. Spend a few months in a controlled military environment, then go to weekend "training" and see what they got themselves into. Then too there is the small issue of a job. Most of those seeking release for active duty are without jobs or working for minimum wage. Part-time military compensation doesn't cover much.

    Time for "work" (this week consists of 5-6 hours of training per day).

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    Senior Member TPLefever's Avatar
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    I've looked at the USAREC site countless times, trying to find something that got me around the GED thing, but nothing. On the very top of the site at the link you gave me, it says you must 'meet the basic recruiter qualifications outlined in para 2-4, AR 601-1. (The minimum age of 21 does not apply to the E4 program. However, the maximum age is 25).' I looked at para 2-4 of 601-1 and it reads '(2) Be a high school graduate with diploma or have I year of college with a high school General Education Development (GED) (no waiver). College Level Entrance Program (CLEP), Department of the Army Non–Resident Testing Education System (DANTES) and military service credit do not apply.' Some of the other regulations don't say 'no waiver', but obviously that's not one of them. I'm just curious as to whether or not there's a way around it, other than waiting to become DA selected which doesn't seem likely.

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    can't post; too scared Anonymous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TPLefever View Post
    I've looked at the USAREC site countless times, trying to find something that got me around the GED thing, but nothing. On the very top of the site at the link you gave me, it says you must 'meet the basic recruiter qualifications outlined in para 2-4, AR 601-1. (The minimum age of 21 does not apply to the E4 program. However, the maximum age is 25).' I looked at para 2-4 of 601-1 and it reads '(2) Be a high school graduate with diploma or have I year of college with a high school General Education Development (GED) (no waiver). College Level Entrance Program (CLEP), Department of the Army Non–Resident Testing Education System (DANTES) and military service credit do not apply.' Some of the other regulations don't say 'no waiver', but obviously that's not one of them. I'm just curious as to whether or not there's a way around it, other than waiting to become DA selected which doesn't seem likely.
    Quote Originally Posted by AR 601-1 para 2-4 October 2007
    (2) Be a high school graduate with diploma or have 30 semester hours of college with a high school General
    Education Development (GED) transcript. College Level Entrance Program (CLEP) and Department of the Army Non-
    Resident Testing Education System (DANTES) credits may apply to 30 semester hours of college. Military service
    credit does not apply (waiver authorized with deployment experience).
    Also, from the FAQ
    [quote=FAQ]Q: I have a GED, can I qualify?

    A: Yes, if you have 30 semester hours of college beyond the GED. CLEP or DANTES credit is not acceptable. It is possible to get a waiver of this requirement if you have a strong record otherwise.[/faq]

    Are you sure you aren't looking at an older version of the reg? As stated above, I have a GED myself. Despite being somewhat smart and having a love of knowledge, I am no fan of formal education, so counting AARTS and my credits from last year I MIGHT have 20 credits total. With these new hours I guess I should looking into knocking out a few more courses. Anyway, good luck, and if you are serious about trying to get into the Corporal Recruiting Program, PM me me and I'll offer what help I can with the application process.

  9. #9
    λεγιων ονομα μοι sycld's Avatar
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    Interesting read, even for people that aren't remotely considering enlisting. (I mean... if I would have "enlisted," it would have been through a military academy as a commissioned officer, though I would have probably dropped out because I couldn't hack it.)


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    Atheists are quite right

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    Quote Originally Posted by sycld View Post
    Interesting read, even for people that aren't remotely considering enlisting. (I mean... if I would have "enlisted," it would have been through a military academy as a commissioned officer, though I would have probably dropped out because I couldn't hack it.)
    That, and people would have asked and you would have told.

    Although I agree, very interesting read, even for a britfag with no real military interest whatsoever.

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    λεγιων ονομα μοι sycld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonj View Post
    That, and people would have asked and you would have told.

    Although I agree, very interesting read, even for a britfag with no real military interest whatsoever.
    speaking of, err, that, there are a lot of gays in the military.

    i wouldn't be surprised if the percentage of the american military that's gay is slightly higher than that of the general population. i base this purely on anecdote, which is the best kind of evidence, second only to evidence by ubermensch ("it's true because the ubermensch is going to kill you and your family if you say it isn't").


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    Quote Originally Posted by Think View Post
    Atheists are quite right

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    You seem like you're a pretty cool recruiter. Hate to say it but my recruiter doesnt seem knowledgeable AT ALL. He actually comes across as kind of an asshole. I came in with a whole list of specific questions (more than a few regarding options, specifically What are options 18-21?, Questions answered now though) and my recruiter just looked at me blank stare and asked me to explain them to him, because he wasnt quite sure what I was talking about. Just going off that it was hard to take anything he told me at face value. Then other questions I would ask he would just start talking, sales pitch like trying to sell me on the subject.

    Unlike the majority of people, just because the person I'm talking to seems absolutley sure of something DOES NOT convince me.

    Hell, I'm a bit of a salesperson myself. I know how incredibly easy it is to convince somebody of something as long as I seem sure of it myself. For instance, I got my buddy to believe that the government was covering up the existance of unicorns- Yeah right? But I digress.

    And then he has the nerve to tell me that "he can tell than I'm a smart guy, but I might wanna cover that up in the army." What does he think I'm going to try and one up him?

    Enough ranting. I guess you could say I'd fall under the last resort category. I went to college for a year, have a high school diploma, so If I enlisted I'd go in as an E2. I'm just not sure if college is for me you know? The more I've considered joining the army, the more it appeals to me. The fact that I don't have to sit behind a desk is just awesome. I scored an 88 on my AVSAB, with a 123 GT, which I'm under the impression that means I pretty much qualify for everything. I'd definitely want to do infantry though, Rangers specifically. He tells me that theres no way to get anything guarenteed in my contract (I heard that I could get the recruiter to reserve MOS?) and that I should just be happy about serving. Dont get me wrong, serving this country would be great, but If I can get a few grand in bonuses than I'd like to do that as well. No harm in that.

    The general consensus I got from the three recruiters bombarding me at once was that doing my homework on this HUGE commitment I'd be thinking about making was frowned upon. It was as if they expected me to waltz in and sign a contract without any knowledge of what I was getting my self into. Which seems totally asinine to me. I kept hearing the words "Ya need to stop listening to shithouse lawyers. Who would know better than us?" Realistically though, am I going to take the word of someone who gets PAID for the numbers? Am I going to buy a car without doing a bit of research on gas mileage and longetivity, or am I going to run right into the dealership and just eat up the fact that "This hummer gets 100 mpg."

    I guess I'm postin this because I figure that It's not right to judge the charectar of a whole institution based on the actions and words of a few people. And I'm really just getting cold feet because it IS a huge commitment, and I'm just scared that I'm going to sign on the dotted line and hate it.

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    I'm sure Fnumbers will be able to give you great advice in this thread. He's almost prodigiously knowledgeable on the subject.

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    ⎷⎛⎝⎷⎛⎝⎷⎛⎝⎷⎛⎝ Snead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonj View Post
    I'm sure Fnumbers will be able to give you great advice in this thread. He's almost prodigiously knowledgeable on the subject.
    Who do you think wrote the OP?

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    I meant in response to that post. I know Fnumbers is the 'anonymous' here, even if he tried to hide it.

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    cowabunga
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    coco

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    ))) joke, relax ;) coqauvin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonj View Post
    I meant in response to that post. I know Fnumbers is the 'anonymous' here, even if he tried to hide it.
    Quote Originally Posted by OP
    Those of you who post here regularly know who I am, but I am posting this anonymously to protect my identity from others who may surf in.
    maybe he would have appreciated the privacy of having those outside this network not immediately know who he is, while completely aware that everyone here knows who he is.

    what do i mean maybe.
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    yeah obviously we'd all suck our alternate universe dicks there was never any question about that
    Quote Originally Posted by Atmosfear
    I don't know if Obama did anything to make that happen, but I do know that he didn't do anything to stop me from blaming him.

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    mutton mutton's Avatar
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    this is why we can't have nice threads

    delete #13-18, doctor_b

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