Thread: Nietzsche eternal return

I'm pretty sure Manifest Destiny is what douchebags use to excuse being douchebags.

It's also the name of my prog band.

And togs, aren't you making Nietzsche's views sound a little bit more optimistic than they were?

Originally Posted by simonj

I'm pretty sure Manifest Destiny is what douchebags use to excuse being douchebags.

Well there is that, yes, but more fundamentally... Manifest Destiny is widely seen as a "God-given" right. It's the divine allocation of the west to the WASPs (if you will, as much as I hate that term). Manifest Destiny is the belief in the "right" to something, not entirely as opposed to the more "this is as it was."

Originally Posted by simonj

And togs, aren't you making Nietzsche's views sound a little bit more optimistic than they were?

Perhaps, but I don't believe so. Where eternal return is more akin to the Cylon belief that "All of this has happened before, and will happen again." Nietzsche's fatalism is more a construct from ""All of this has happened as it should." In fact, in the passage specifically quoted in the Amor fati page, there shouldn't be any sense optimism or pessimism because to do so would, in effect, negate the very idea he is trying to form.

Originally Posted by TheOriginalGrumpySpy

Well there is that, yes, but more fundamentally... Manifest Destiny is widely seen as a "God-given" right. It's the divine allocation of the west to the WASPs (if you will, as much as I hate that term). Manifest Destiny is the belief in the "right" to something, not entirely as opposed to the more "this is as it was."

This still captures the essence of it. Nietzsche says "All happens as it should" and Manifest Destiny is "If I can do it, God wanted me to" implying that "All that happens happens because God wanted it to (ergo it should)".

Originally Posted by TheOriginalGrumpySpy

Perhaps, but I don't believe so. Where eternal return is more akin to the Cylon belief that "All of this has happened before, and will happen again." Nietzsche's fatalism is more a construct from ""All of this has happened as it should." In fact, in the passage specifically quoted in the Amor fati page, there shouldn't be any sense optimism or pessimism because to do so would, in effect, negate the very idea he is trying to form.

I think simonj is commenting on the fact that the neutrality this point espouses is loads cheerier than most of Nietzsche's writing. Regardless, it's still incredibly bleak.

Originally Posted by coqauvin

This still captures the essence of it. Nietzsche says "All happens as it should" and Manifest Destiny is "If I can do it, God wanted me to" implying that "All that happens happens because God wanted it to (ergo it should)".

Hmm. I agree with you but with a caveat; a belief in fate is more fundamental than a belief in fate guided by a divine entity. That's my only sticking point, but I could easily argue that they are the same thing, but for me, they are not.

My assumption is that if you were to ask Nietzsche if he believed in fate, he would say yes (obviously, this is apparent). Now ask if believed a divine entity was the direct cause of this, he would say no.