Results 1 to 40 of 40

Thread: Soviet Social-Imperialism: An Introduction

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Canned Kal El's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Wonderland
    Posts
    2,936
    Credits
    401
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barack Dalai Lama View Post
    This is why Hoxha condemned Mao, fyi. He believed that socialism would come into countries gradually at its own pace and that any attempt to "export" the revolution is imperialist and alienates the people of said nation. Just the listed content of this book shows your ignorance of Hoxhaism's development from Maoism.
    What makes you think I give a damn about the difference between the two countries? Just look at all the countries in the world that are still Communist. 4 of them are complete failures, and only China is any sort of exception, mostly due to the fact the country adopted some free enterprise into it's country, that and the fact the USA made it easy for companies based in the USA to outsource jobs. Vietnam, North Korea, Albania, and Cuba are all complete failures.

    While China's claims to Taiwan are probably imperialist (I would not argue, though you did not mention, that their movement into Tibet was imperialist), the Republic of China did not exactly treat ethnic Taiwanese peoples well once in power, since it always saw itself as China and not Taiwan.
    I did not mention Tibet for the shear fact that Tibet has been under Chinese rule for hundreds of years, so there is nothing "imperialist" about it when they have had control of that territory for a great deal of time.

    Under Hoxha it developed its first industry, abolished illiteracy, fought for equality for women, fought tribalism, and secured Albanian independence against Greek and Yugoslav claims. It also helped get China into the UN (back when Hoxha and Mao were allied).

    And yet it's still one of the poorest countries in Europe. Yes, he did a lot of good, from taking the country from one element of failure to another.
    Quote Originally Posted by KT_ View Post
    Yes.

    Yesterday I was playing the Mirror's Edge demo while a dude was eating me out. Mirror's Edge is fucking awesome. I'm excited.
    Quote Originally Posted by victrola View Post
    he may be a faggot but in this case he is correct

  2. #2
    Senior Member Syme's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    769
    Credits
    0
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    I'd disagree that the PRC's claim to Taiwan is "imperialist". Taiwan has historically been a part of the Chinese nation and the reason that Taiwan and mainland China are separate countries today is that each one ended up under the control of rival parties during the Chinese civil war. Neither the PRC's claim to Taiwan nor the ROC's claim to the mainland is imperialist in nature; both claims stem from the fact that the historical Chinese nation (which includes both the mainland and Formosa) is still, to this day, divided under two governments as a result of an unresolved civil war. Each government's claim represents a desire to conclude the Chinese civil war in their favor, rather than any sort of imperialism.

    Sorry, kind of a tangent, but I felt it had to be said.

  3. #3
    Canned Kal El's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Wonderland
    Posts
    2,936
    Credits
    401
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Syme View Post
    I'd disagree that the PRC's claim to Taiwan is "imperialist". Taiwan has historically been a part of the Chinese nation and the reason that Taiwan and mainland China are separate countries today is that each one ended up under the control of rival parties during the Chinese civil war. Neither the PRC's claim to Taiwan nor the ROC's claim to the mainland is imperialist in nature; both claims stem from the fact that the historical Chinese nation (which includes both the mainland and Formosa) is still, to this day, divided under two governments as a result of an unresolved civil war. Each government's claim represents a desire to conclude the Chinese civil war in their favor, rather than any sort of imperialism.

    Sorry, kind of a tangent, but I felt it had to be said.
    You are correct, I just felt like throwing around the word "imperialist" since MrDie gets off to that.

    The situation between Taiwan and China is no different than North and South Korea, only that the ocean separates China from Taiwan, and North and South Korea have a demarcation line that separates the two.
    Quote Originally Posted by KT_ View Post
    Yes.

    Yesterday I was playing the Mirror's Edge demo while a dude was eating me out. Mirror's Edge is fucking awesome. I'm excited.
    Quote Originally Posted by victrola View Post
    he may be a faggot but in this case he is correct

  4. #4
    UH OH CHINA IN TROUBLE Barack Dalai Lama's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    258
    Credits
    20
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal El View Post
    What makes you think I give a damn about the difference between the two countries?
    It makes you look like less of an idiot considering that you had no idea what social-imperialism meant.

    Just look at all the countries in the world that are still Communist.
    All zero of them, because none of them have claimed communism because that would be contradictory. Not even Hoxha said that socialism was fully constructed in Albania at the time of his death, and that Brezhnev was a revisionist for saying that socialism in the USSR had existed. (Especially since Brezhnev, like Khrushchev, was continuing capitalist reforms, negating the role of the proletariat in society, etc.)

    4 of them are complete failures, and only China is any sort of exception, mostly due to the fact the country adopted some free enterprise into it's country, that and the fact the USA made it easy for companies based in the USA to outsource jobs. Vietnam, North Korea, Albania, and Cuba are all complete failures.
    Vietnam just followed whatever the USSR did, and now follows whatever China does. The fact that the USSR, etc. experienced more economic problems parallel to the amount of capitalist reforms they made (yes, believe it or not the USSR achieved state capitalism by the 1970's). Vietnam is a joke, and due to capitalist reforms has allowed itself to become dependent on both the Chinese and Americans.

    The DPRK, on the other hand, strives for self-sufficiency. It has successfully merged socialism with the Korean culture (which Hoxha could not achieve all that much in Albania with Albanian culture), maintains links with Communist movements worldwide (Pyongyang Declaration much?), and has refused capitalist reforms outside of a minor flirtation in the early 2000's which unceremoniously ended within like two years. Besides agricultural problems due to inhospitable terrain in the 1990's and subsequent problems in the northern, rural areas, it holds on better than most countries in the region.

    As for Cuba, it's doing pretty well for itself although most of its economy is capitalist. It still has much respect in Latin America and though I am critical of Castro for intervention on behalf of the Soviets in Angola and Ethiopia in the 70's, at least he didn't do an about-face after the USSR fell in 1991.

    And yet it's still one of the poorest countries in Europe. Yes, he did a lot of good, from taking the country from one element of failure to another.
    Let's compare:

    Under Hoxha:
    a) Albania led the world anti-revisionist movement with (then not seen as revisionist) China, and did much to help Maoism spread in Europe and West Africa, and also was one of the few pro-Chinese states in the UN at the time;
    b) Albania was relatively modernized, going from tribalism to modern health care, education, total electrification, industry, government (as opposed to the clan-based almost at times pseudo-state of the past), independence (Hoxha resisted Greek claims on southern Albania, for example, and incorporation into Yugoslavia in the 40's), women's rights, a far higher standard of living, etc. For a state that achieved most of this in under 25 years, that's pretty goddamn amazing. It went from the 15th century to the 20th. Oh, and it also resisted Soviet social-imperialism while remaining a member of the WP. (Until withdrawing in 1968)

    Now, in the period of 1990-today:
    a) there was a massive surge in corruption, which accumulated until 1997 when a civil war (civil war) began over a government-sponsored ponzi scheme;
    b) a revival of tribal laws including the (banned under Hoxha) Gjakmarrja which fucked over entire families, rise in organized crime, deteriorating health and educational systems, etc. US aid came in to save the day for Albania after its transition totally wrecked the economy.

    Pretty sure Hoxha wins here, unless a life expectancy of 38, 90%+ illiteracy, no electricity, clan laws, no independent foreign policy, not even a unified language, and total superstition sound totally awesome to you. In this case I'd tell you to look into King Zog's rule, because that was the condition of Albania in the 30's.

    From AP:
    Tirana, Albania - It's 10 o'clock in the morning and Shkelten Daljani, a rambunctious boy of 14 in a tattered "Route 66" T-shirt, should be in school. But if he wants to eat, he has to help his father collect scrap metal to sell. The previous day, he says, there was no metal and no food.

    "If we have food, we eat," Shkelten says with a shrug. "If we don't, we don't."

    Shkelten and his family live on the outskirts of Albania's capital, Tirana, in the neighborhood of Breju Lumi, which means riverside, though the only nearby water is a dry streambed cluttered with trash. The houses are a collection of concrete blocks and tin shacks without electricity, running water, or sanitation. The streets are little more than dirt lanes.

    Shkelten's situation – inadequate housing and sanitation, poor medical care, and occasional hunger – is little different from that of millions of children throughout Africa, Asia, and Latin America. But his home is in the heart of Europe.

    Millions of children in the formerly communist nations of Eastern Europe have been left behind as their countries made the transition from centralized economies to free-market capitalism. While in absolute numbers the number of poor children has fallen in recent years, advocates and researchers say that a new class of excluded children is emerging who suffer many of the same problems as children in the poorest countries of Africa – but receive far less attention.

    "We used to say that everybody was equally poor," says Arlinda Ymeraj, a social-policy officer with the UN Children's Fund in Albania. "Now, if you compare, there are big disparities. A few people have gotten very rich, but more have stayed poor or gotten poorer."

    The situation of Albania's children is among Europe's worst. Once one of the most isolated nations, the country remains one of the continent's poorest countries.

    Despite recent economic growth, a third of Albania's children live on less than $2 a day. And according to the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF), a staggering 35 percent of children in rural areas are malnourished; in urban areas, 17 percent are. In terms of child malnutrition – measured by the percentage of children under age 5 who are underweight – the World Bank puts Albania just above Republic of Congo and Zimbabwe.

    Leonardo Menchini, a researcher for UNICEF's Innocenti Research Center in Florence, Italy, says no one is certain why so many children in Albania are malnourished and that more research needs to be done since the statistics are based only on a handful of studies. Still, he says, "The data for Albania are quite shocking."

    Ms. Ymeraj says that it is difficult to compare the situation of children today with that during communist times, but that life has deteriorated for the poorest in a number of concrete ways.

    The state no longer guarantees jobs, houses, or healthcare, as it did before. In rural areas, industry and state-farm collectives have collapsed, leaving people to fend for themselves, and many government services are no longer available. In rural areas, for example, 85 percent of secondary schools have shut their doors.

    Researchers say that poverty is becoming increasingly entrenched, particularly in rural areas, among Albania's minority Roma population and in families with children. Indeed, across the region, countries with the lowest birthrates also have the lowest poverty levels.

    "What has emerged is the concentration of disadvantage. Families with children seem more disadvantaged than before, relatively speaking," says Menchini, emphasizing that the state must do more to protect children. "It's important for these counties to invest in social services. They have to break the intergenerational transmission of poverty."

    Jalldyz Ymeri, a young grandmother who lives near the Daljani family, says in communist days she would not have nearly lost her 3-year-old grandson Orgito – a spiky-haired boy with angelic eyes – whom races around the family's dirt yard as she watches. A few months earlier, the boy fell seriously ill, and Ymeri had to bribe a doctor to see him.

    "The medicines to cure him are very expensive," she says. "Sometimes we have to choose between food or medicine. Nobody will treat us if we don't pay."

    "For us it was much better in communist times," insists Ymeri's husband, Safet. "We were obliged to go to school. The government gave us housing. We like democracy, but this is not real democracy."
    I did not mention Tibet for the shear fact that Tibet has been under Chinese rule for hundreds of years, so there is nothing "imperialist" about it when they have had control of that territory for a great deal of time.
    So wait, Tibet invasion isn't imperialist (not arguing that it was) yet China's maneuvering over Taiwan is? The RoC itself was seen as imperialist by many ethnic Taiwanese, Tibet was de facto independent for the majority of its history under de jure Chinese rule.
    Last edited by Barack Dalai Lama; 04-30-2009 at 09:51 AM.

  5. #5
    Canned Kal El's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Wonderland
    Posts
    2,936
    Credits
    401
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barack Dalai Lama View Post
    Let's compare:

    Under Hoxha:
    a) Albania led the world anti-revisionist movement with (then not seen as revisionist) China, and did much to help Maoism spread in Europe and West Africa, and also was one of the few pro-Chinese states in the UN at the time;
    b) Albania was relatively modernized, going from tribalism to modern health care, education, total electrification, industry, government (as opposed to the clan-based almost at times pseudo-state of the past), independence (Hoxha resisted Greek claims on southern Albania, for example, and incorporation into Yugoslavia in the 40's), women's rights, a far higher standard of living, etc. For a state that achieved most of this in under 25 years, that's pretty goddamn amazing. It went from the 15th century to the 20th. Oh, and it also resisted Soviet social-imperialism while remaining a member of the WP. (Until withdrawing in 1968)

    Now, in the period of 1990-today:
    a) there was a massive surge in corruption, which accumulated until 1997 when a civil war (civil war) began over a government-sponsored ponzi scheme;
    b) a revival of tribal laws including the (banned under Hoxha) Gjakmarrja which fucked over entire families, rise in organized crime, deteriorating health and educational systems, etc. US aid came in to save the day for Albania after its transition totally wrecked the economy.

    Pretty sure Hoxha wins here, unless a life expectancy of 38, 90%+ illiteracy, no electricity, clan laws, no independent foreign policy, not even a unified language, and total superstition sound totally awesome to you. In this case I'd tell you to look into King Zog's rule, because that was the condition of Albania in the 30's.
    Either way buddy, it has been, and still is, one of the poorest countries in Europe. I don't really care what Hoxha did, what King Zog did, or what the country is up too now. They are still one of the poorest countries in Europe.


    So wait, Tibet invasion isn't imperialist (not arguing that it was) yet China's maneuvering over Taiwan is? The RoC itself was seen as imperialist by many ethnic Taiwanese, Tibet was de facto independent for the majority of its history under de jure Chinese rule.
    Notice where I said "I just threw around Imperialist since MrDie gets off to that."

    You are obviously the one who can't read.
    Quote Originally Posted by KT_ View Post
    Yes.

    Yesterday I was playing the Mirror's Edge demo while a dude was eating me out. Mirror's Edge is fucking awesome. I'm excited.
    Quote Originally Posted by victrola View Post
    he may be a faggot but in this case he is correct

Similar Threads

  1. Be a secret spy for the soviet union
    By zeroslave in forum Casual Intercourse
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 03-17-2009, 07:59 PM
  2. Introduction Thread?
    By Beef in forum Suggestions
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 11-06-2008, 07:59 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •