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    UH OH CHINA IN TROUBLE Barack Dalai Lama's Avatar
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    Default Soviet Social-Imperialism: An Introduction

    I posted this in another forum, but I'm also posting it here since I remember talking to many liberals who supported Soviet imperialism (mainly in Angola and Afghanistan) while hypocritically being against American imperialism.

    Social-Imperialism on Wiki:
    Social-imperialism is a Marxist expression, typically used in a derogatory fashion, to describe people, parties, or nations that are "socialist in words, imperialist in deeds". The phrase was first used in Marxist circles during the early 20th C discussions on the position of the international workers' movement towards the impending European war and particularly in regards to the Social Democratic Party of Germany. In this context it is very similar to, but not interchangeable with, the terms social chauvinism and social patriotism

    In later decades the most significant use of the phrase has been in the Maoist critique of the Soviet Union. Mao argued that the Soviet Union had itself become an imperialist power while maintaining a socialist façade. Albanian Communist leader Enver Hoxha originally agreed with Mao in this analysis, before later using the expression to condemn China's Three Worlds Theory.
    I am of the opinion that Soviet social-imperialism began early, though it did not take on such an aggressive/superpower form until the 1950's when Stalin died and Khrushchev (and successors) drifted away from socialism. Early social-imperialism was also (in my opinion) fairly genuine in its intention (though still imperialist) to maintain socialism whereas after the 40's it was simply a way of gaining profit.

    I. De-Turkification of Central Asia

    Upon the rise of the Soviet Union in 1922 to replace the Russian SFSR as the main force of socialism in the lands, the Soviet Republics in Central Asia underwent campaigns to discourage Pan-Turkism. This was because during the efforts of Ismail Enver across Central Asia and the ensuring Basmachi Revolt, many Central Asian nationalities rose up against Russian chauvinism. Though the Bolsheviks addressed this as a danger to the construction of socialism in Central Asia, the Ukraine, etc. they also practiced a policy of divide-and-rule among these groups, pointing out and amplifying their differences to ward off a Pan-Turkist uprising. Progressive Pan-Turkists such as Sultan-Galiev who joined the Bolsheviks only out of the belief that they upheld true self-determination were purged by the 1940's (Sultan-Galiev made the mistake of trying to tactically align with Trotsky against Stalin in the 1920's, to which Trotsky rejected). The independent (in theory) Soviet Republics ceased to be independent after the 30's, now all nearly uncritically supporting the Russian SFSR line, which was the line of the Soviet Union.

    II. Mongolian People's Republic

    The second nominally socialist state in history, the Mongolians cast off the monarchy in 1924 but many relied upon the Soviet Union for economic and ideological aid. Regardless, many Mongolians did not care for Soviet-style socialism, and the leaders of Mongolia did not feel that atheism would work well in advancing Mongolian socialism. This however began to change in the 1930's. Peljidiin Genden, Mongolian progressive leader, was purged in 1937 in Moscow rather than being tried in his own nation. He allegedly used the predecessor to the term Social-Imperialism, "Red Imperialism."

    Under Khorloogiin Choibalsan the Mongolian state developed and pursued a semi-independent foreign policy centered on expanding Mongol territory into Xinjiang and Inner Mongolia. Under his long-ruling successor Yumjaagiin Tsedenbal the Soviets treated Mongolia as an outright puppet state, with many Soviet troops deployed within. Pro-Chinese sympathies within Mongolia were looked upon with deep suspicion and many army members were purged throughout the 1960's and 70's. Mongolia abandoned its status as a People's Republic semi-quietly in 1992, with the end of the Soviet Union removing the security of Soviet troops and protests forcing reform.

    III. Tuvan People's Republic

    The history of Tuva in the period of 1921-1944 is essentially that of a more condensed version of Mongolian history. Declared in 1921, the Tuvan state was ruled by progressives until a combination of resistance to atheism, support of the Genden rule in Mongolia, and refusal to collectivize resulted in yet another purge of the leadership, with Donduk Kuular's fall clearly a result of Soviet interests. The Communist University of the Toilers of the East produced the new leaders of the state, which was all but a part of the Soviet Union proper until 1944. That same year it was apparent that Tuva had more to gain by being a part of the Soviet Union (and risked purges if it did not), and so the Tuvan parliament voted for its incorporation as the Tuvan Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic.

    IV. The Baltic States

    As a result of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, which was a result of France and Great Britain shunning the Soviet-proposed Collective Security idea against an expansionist Germany, the Baltic States were 'given' to the Soviet Union at Soviet insistance to prevent a possible invasion of German troops from these states into Leningrad and other areas. Many of the Baltic states were ruled by ex-White Army officials who were thus extremely anti-Soviet, and these states ensured that the populations would agree with their leaders on this issue. The Soviets invaded, and despite resistance managed to hold onto the Republics as SSRs. Though these SSRs were profitable by the 1980's and ensured more access to the sea, the people within them were among (with the Ukrainians) the most eager to leave the Union in 1991.

    V. Poland

    As a result of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, it was agreed that Poland would be divided to prevent the possibility of it aligning with the other state or being the source of intrigue between the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany. The Soviets wanted their piece due to the obvious concern of a Nazi invasion into Leningrad and other areas being made far easier. After World War II the Polish governments were generally pro-Soviet but in the 1980's military rule replaced party rule as workers united under the Solidarity trade union. Poland abandoned socialism in 1989 with most other Warsaw Pact states.

    VI. Eastern Europe

    The defeat of Nazi Germany left a divided Europe, with the Soviets adhering to the term People's Democracies, originated by Georgi Dimitrov. This meant that these states would be nominally 'popular', meaning they could pursue either capitalism (pro-West) or socialism (pro-East, aka Soviet), or perhaps simple neutrality. In reality however once the pro-Soviet movements gained strength they were able to overcome the pro-West elements and take control. The Warsaw Pact, founded in 1955, consolidated these states under Soviet control. Also during the 1950's was Khrushchev's specialization policy, which meant that these nations would be developing specific resource outputs of their own, which would in theory strengthen the Warsaw Pact by largely reducing the lack of certain resources many of the nations faced. In reality however this reduced these states to neo-colonialism, and only Albania refused.

    By the late 1980's these states quickly broke down and the Warsaw Pact was dissolved in 1991.

    VII. Hungary: 1956

    An inefficient Working People's Party failed to captivate the masses. As a result, a large anti-Soviet uprising began which united both dissident Communists and reactionaries against the state. The Soviet Union invaded soon after, defeating the uprising while also replacing the discredited party with a total puppet party known as the Socialist Workers' Party.

    VIII. Czechoslovakia: 1968

    After a fairly independent leader known as Alexander Dubchek rose to power as First Secretary of the Communist Party of Czechoslovakia, he began moving to the right and slowly repudiated Communism (which meant Soviet-style socialism) in favor of Social Democracy. The Soviets, afraid of losing an unwilling ally, formulated the Brezhnev Doctrine. The Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia resulted in yet another puppet leader and scared the rest of the Warsaw Pact states into total allegiance with the exception of Albania, which withdrew the same year, condemning the Soviets as social-imperialists.

    IX. Albania

    Albania was the only nation occupied during World War II whose independence was not determined by a great power, along with Yugoslavia. The Yugoslavs however soon dominated the Albanian state until the Soviet-Yugoslav Split which resulted in the defeat of the pro-Yugoslav line of the Albanian Communist Party led by Kochi Xoxe. The Albanians enjoyed strong relations with the Soviet Union until the 1950's, when it rejected Khrushchev's specialization policy and Khrushchev's 'Secret Speech' of 1956 as revisionist. A submarine base was built on the island of Sazan near Vlora, which the Soviets attempted to claim control of to no success after the Albanians spurned them. Furthermore, Khrushchev gave subtle support to Greek separatism in southern Albania as another action designed to have Albania relent and give up its independent position. In his memoirs, Khrushchev said of Hoxha that he "was like a dog who bites the hand that feeds it." Albania successfuly resisted Soviet social-imperialism and spoke out against it in 1968 (Czechoslovakia) and 1979 (Afghanistan).

    X. Cuba

    After a popular revolution overthrew the discredited Fulgencio Batista (who was so hated that the Americans hoped to overthrow him and install Col. Ramon Barquin in his place), Fidel Castro came to power saying that "Capitalism sacrifices man, the Communist state sacrifices man. . Our revolution is not red, but olive-green, the colour of the rebel army." As Castro quickly shifted to the left however, the Americans became extremely hostile and Castro found an ally in the Soviet Union. Though relations were not extremely close, they quickly grew throughout the 1960's. The Soviets wanted sugar production to be the focus of Cuba (as per Khrushchev's specialization policy within the Warsaw Pact), and Castro agreed. In the book Castroism: Theory and Practice, it notes that "Castro announced... that his whole new economic policy was postulated on a spectacular increase in sugar production, aimed at reaching 10 million tons by 1970. Agricultural diversification went backward instead of forward. For example, rice production had advanced to a high point of 181,000 tons in 1957, two years before Castro, and plunged to 95,400 tons in 1962, after three years of Castro. Cuba had been forced to reorganise its entire economy." In other words, "Castro announced a reorientation of the Cuban economy towards agriculture, in particular the growing of sugar cane and cattle-raising."

    This alienated Che Guevara, who, in Cuba - Exception or Vanguard?, stressed that "Under-development or distorted development, carries with it a dangerous specialisation in raw materials, containing a threat of hunger for all our people. We, 'the under-developed', are those of the single crop, the single product, and the single market. A single product whose uncertain sale depends upon a single market, which imposes and sets conditions. This is the great formula of imperial economic domination which is combined with the old and always useful Roman formula, 'divide and conquer.'" In the end, as Daniel Jame's book Che Guevara notes of Che's comments to the Egyptian weekly Akher Saa, "Che roundly castigated the Russians as 'revisionists'" "Che's embrace of a kind of Maoism and his search for ideas that led him outside (Soviet) Marxism-Leninism could be, and were, construed in Moscow to be be anti-Soviet. Che had to go. His repeated public attacks upon the Soviet Union had finally become intolerable to the Kremlin, whose representatives had served notice of their displeasure on Premier Fidel Castro, leaving Castro with no real choice, since Moscow's economic aid kept his government and economy afloat." "Che himself was not seen anywhere in public after returning from Africa, excepting one appearance at a lecture he gave towards the end of March (1965). Che never turned up again at the Ministry of Industry following his March lecture there.. He... had suddenly and mysteriously disappeared from public view."

    In the end, Che was captured in Bolivia and shot. His diaries (published in 1968 as Bolivian Diary) noted that one of the main causes of Che's defeat were "Treacherous leaders.... Their true purpose was to destroy guerilla movements in the bud, to slow down all revolutionary action, and to put in its place their own absurd and despicable political deals" Daniel James stated in his book that "The Bolivian Communists deserve all the criticism Castro gives them, for they did indeed play a 'treacherous' role which contributed mightily, perhaps decisively, to Che's failure." Could the pro-Soviet Communist Party of Bolivia have been to blame?

    Throughout the 1970's and 80's the Cubans continued to move ever closer to the Soviets. They participated in pro-Soviet interventions abroad (see XI and XII) and as Sebastian Balfour's 1990 book Castro notes, in 1976 "[a] new constitution largely modelled on that of the Soviet Union was approved in a referendum in 1976." Cuban dependence on the Soviet Union was so great that in a 1992 interview with Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera Castro stated that "Our basic problems are the economic blockade and the disappearance of the socialist camp. Some 85 percent of our trade was with those countries.. The value of our sugar in fact, balanced the cost of the petroleum we got from the USSR... That trade has almost disappeared with the disappearance of the socialist countries. We had to turn to new markest. We have lost imports, credit, and technology, and sought fuel, raw materials, and drugs elsewhere." In the Guardian in the same year, he said that "I can't say that Gorbachev played a conscious part in the destruction of the Soviet Union, because I have no doubt that Gorbachev's aim was to struggle to perfect socialism." Pro-Soviet to the end, or even beyond that end.

    XI. Angola

    In struggle with Portuguese colonialism were chiefly the two parties known as the Popular Movement for the Liberation of Angola (MPLA) and the National Union for the Total Independence of Angola (UNITA). Both anti-colonialist, the MPLA declared itself nominally socialist and loyal to the Soviets while UNITA was vaguely socialist and somewhat loyal, but always independently-minded, of the Chinese. Over time both the MPLA and UNITA proved to be very popular among Angolans albeit in different areas and among different ethnic groups. A chronic and extremely long civil war raged after the fall of Portuguese colonialism in 1975, with the MPLA leading the state.

    Afraid of losing influence in this huge battle (UNITA allegedly received support at various times from Bulgaria, Egypt, France, Israel, Morocco, the People's Republic of China, North Korea (although North Korea later recognized the MPLA government), Saudi Arabia, South Africa, the United States, Zaire, and Zambia while the MPLA was supported by Algeria, Bulgaria, Cape Verde Islands, Czechoslovakia, the Congo, Guinea-Bissau, Morocco, Mozambique, Nigeria, North Korea, the People's Republic of China, Romania, São Tomé and Príncipe, the Soviet Union, Sudan, Tanzania, Vietnam, and Yugoslavia), the Soviets were pleased to see the Cubans invade on behalf of the MPLA as UNITA turned opportunist due to lack of Chinese aid and turned to the Americans and South Africans for aid. In the end, the Cubans ensured MPLA rule though UNITA continued to struggle beyond the collapse of the USSR and the MPLA's turn to the right, with the US even abandoning UNITA in support of the MPLA. The civil war did not end until 2002, when UNITA leader Jonas Savimbi was finally killed, ending the 20+ year war.

    Perhaps Enver Hoxha summed it best. "The Soviet Union also involves its allies, or better, its satellites in its interference. We are seeing this concretely in Africa, where the Soviet social-imperialist and their Cuban mercenaries are intervening on the pretext that they are assisting the revolution. This is a lie. Their intervention is nothing but a colonialist action aimed at capturing markets and subjugating peoples... They have never had the slightest intention of assisting the Angolan revolution, but their aim was and is to get their claws into that African country which had won a certain independence after the expulsion of the Portuguese colonialists The Cuban mercenaries are the colonial army dispatched by the Soviet Union to capture markets and strategic positions in the countries of Black Africa, and to go on from Angola to other states, to enable the Soviet social-imperialists, too , to create a modern colonial empire.... Agostinho Neto is playing the game of the Soviets. In the struggle against the other faction, in order to seize power for himself, he called in the Soviets to help him. The struggle between the two opposing Angolan clans did not have anything of a people's revolutionary character."

    XII. Ogaden War: Ethiopia versus Somalia

    In 1969 the Somali government was overthrown by the military, led by socialist Siad Barre, who was involved in the Soviet-trained army. Though it would seem like Somalia would be yet another pro-Soviet state, this did not occur. Barre repudiated the official atheist line of the Soviet Union and proclaimed Scientific Socialism the basis of his state, while attempting to integrate socialism with the Somali Islamic culture. Church and state were separated, clan warfare fought, and great advances made. A massive literacy campaign titled Bar ama Baro (Teach or Learn) was put in place where a large amount civil servants numbering up to 40,000 students were sent to the countryside to educate the nomads in literacy and by 1977, more than 70% of the Somali population had passed literacy tests, a result that had astonished the World and an achievement that was viewed by United Nations as one of the most successful mass-urban literacy campaign ever recorded. The founder of African Socialist, Julius Nyerere, admired Barre and at a 1974 Mogadishu OAU meeting declared that "The Somalis are practicing what we in Tanzania teach." Though relations with the Soviets remained fairly close (Barre met with many pro-Soviet leaders including Castro, for instance), Barre simply wanted security from US imperialism. Ideologically however, Barre drew more from Maoism and African Socialism than he ever did Soviet Marxism-Leninism.

    Cut to 1974, the Ethiopian monarchy is overthrown by leftist military men who united into what was known as the Derg. Mengistu Haile Mariam gradually consolidates his position and becomes Chairman of the Derg in 1977. Though Mengistu was a leftist who, like Barre, enjoyed mixing ideologies. He combined Soviet Marxism-Leninism, some aspects of Maoism, and Amharic nationalism which backfired and alienated Ethiopia's many ethnic groups, especially Muslim Somalis and Oromos. As authors Marina and David Ottaway note in their book Afrocommunism however, "[f]rom an average of about $10 million a year between 1969 and 1974, US military deliveries [in Ethiopia] reached a total value of $18.5 million in 1974-75, $26 million in 1975-76 and almost $135 million in 1976-77." In the book Talk of the Devil, a series of interviews of former leaders by Riccardo Orizio, he interviews Mengistu after his fall from power. Mengistu alluded that he was an opportunist and just tried to get aid from whomever he could.

    Relations between Somalia and Ethiopia deteriorated however. The Ethiopian government cracked down on Somali separatism in the Ogaden region, as many Somalis associated themselves with the Pan-Somali and Islam-friendly government of Barre in Somalia rather than the Amharic-based, atheistic government of Mengistu. The Western Somali Liberation Front was formed to coordinate these Somalis into open rebellion, and in 1977 war began between Somalia and Ethiopia over the region. The Somalis quickly moved on to bigger and better victories until suddenly alliances switched. The Soviets, convinced that their interests in the Red Sea were better served by a more pro-Soviet leader of a stronger state, sided with Ethiopia and abandoned Somalia. The Cubans then arrived with massive military assistance and drove the Somalis out of the Ogaden. The war ended a year later with Ethiopia victorious.

    As the years went on the Somali economy continued to be damaged by both the abrupt loss of Soviet trade and the losses of the Somali war. This however was not the only issue. Many pro-Ethiopian rebellions began in the north, but this was not about ethnic issues but tribal ones. These tribal rebellions grew as the government continued its leftist programs and centralization policies. By the mid 80's the rebels quickly made gains while Barre offered ceasefires. They were rejected by leaders who were now resemling warlords. In 1988 Ethiopia and Somalia patched up relations and vowed to stay out of each others affairs but by then it was too late. US-backed tribal groups soon began to emerge as Barre (who sought US aid during the Ogaden War and continued some trade with the US in the following years) distanced himself from the US and vice-versa. In 1991 he was forced to flee, and Somalia has been in anarchy ever since, Barre having never recanted his socialism.

    In Ethiopia, Mengistu's policies proved to be his undoing. Organized resistance among ethnic lines quickly appeared led chiefly by the Tigrayan People's Liberation Front, the Eritrean People's Liberation Front, and the Oromo Liberation Front. In the 1980's famine hit, and by 1991 Mengistu was forced to flee from his nation, having alienated every ethnic group but his own. He later blamed a lack of Soviet aid starting in the late 80's as the chief cause of his failure to hold onto power.

    XIII. Afghanistan

    In the 1950's Afghanistan was a monarchy led by a King whose powers were quickly becoming constitutional. Daoud, a cousin of the King, became Prime Minister. A Pashtun nationalist and anti-communist, he nevertheless became increasingly pro-Soviet until being forced to resign in 1963 over concerns of his relations with them. In the 1960's Afghanistan became a de jure constitutional monarchy and the pro-Soviet People's Democratic Party was founded in 1965. It was soon divided into two factions, the Parcham (who were reformist) and the Khalq (who were revolutionary, at least within the limits of a pro-Soviet framework). Though the PDP (both factions) gained in legislative victories in 1969, the Shola-y-Jaweid (a Maoist, later Hoxhaist movement) remained more popular among students and those of the Hazara ethnic group (opposed to the PDP's Pashtun nationalist leaders) while also remaining underground.

    In 1973 with Soviet and PDP support, Daoud overthrew the monarchy and declared a Republic. He allowed the Parcham into his cabinet but was critical of the Khalq who regarded him as reactionary. Over time however Daoud began to purge the Communists and improve ties with non-Soviet states. The army, now loyal to the Khalq, overthrew Daoud in 1978 and declared a Democratic Republic. The PDP was now Khalq-dominated but policies mirroring the Soviets quickly alienated Afghan society, which began massive rebellions that soon spread to the entire country by 1979. Opposition to the Soviets by Communists was attacked (such as the Shola-y-Jaweid) and forced underground, with most joining the growing rebellions. It was clear that change was necessary. Hafizullah Amin overthrew the discredited Mohammed Taraki and began reaching out to the Americans (who were funding some of the rebels) for help.

    The Soviets decided that losing Afghanistan in their sphere of influence was intolerable, and invaded in December of 1979. Amin was killed (for being a "CIA agent") and the Parcham were brought back in power. For ten years the Soviet war in Afghanistan became the Soviet equivalent of the Vietnam War. By 1987 Soviet leader Gorbachev decided that the massive and unending losses in the Afghan war warranted a withdraw, which was accomplished in 1989. The Afghan government essentially abandoned upholding socialism by 1992, when it was finally overthrown. Soviet social-imperialism beyond its own borders came to an end with the end of the war as the Soviet Union began its road to dissolution.

    XIV. Russification of the Soviet Union

    In the 1940's Russification began. Khrushchev in the Ukraine for example was one of the pioneers, condemning those who felt that Russians were still by far the dominant group within the Soviet Union. By the 1970's however Russification truly began to take hold. By the 60's, the Uzbek SSR for example was focused entirely on cotton exporting to the other Soviet Republics, yet another specialization policy. As the National Composition of the Populations of the SSRs in 1964 states: "The climatic conditions and specific features of agricultural production in the republics of Central Asia and the Caucasus... demand workers with the necessary knowledge and labour habits of farming in these areas. Such workers are, above all, the native peoples of these regions. The mass recruitment of this population into industry, transport, construction, etc., might weaken the development of quite important sectors of agriculture. In planning the development of the economy, the specific features of such regions are taken into account. For example, in the Seven-Year Plan of developing the economy of the USSR for 1959-65, it is indicated that the Uzbek SSR will continue in the future to be the main cotton base of the country. Therefore, basic attention in Uzbekistan will continue to be devoted to the development of cotton growing"

    Resistance in the Uzbek SSR however was wrong. In 1971, Problems of the Optimisation of the Development of Light Industry in Uzbekistan in the light of the Decisions of the 24th Congress of the CPSU stated that "Uzbekistan produces 70% of All-Union output of cotton lint, 38% of raw silk and 90% of kenaf fibre. Yet only 2.8% of cotton cloth manufactured in the country, 2.7% of clothes and shoes, 2.6% of knitwear and 2.1% of stockings and socks, are produced here, while the steadily growing share of the republic in the population of the USSR reached 5% in 1970. By quantity of output per capita of light industry products, Uzbekistan occupies one of the last places in the Soviet Union... "Just in the past five-year plan, the average tempos of growth in output of light industry were 8.5% for the nation as a whole, but 3.6% for Uzbekistan... During the past 35 years not a single cotton textile combine has been built in the Uzbek SSR. Up to now, there are no enterprises for manufacturing woolen fabrics and blankets. There are few knitwear, garment and shoe factories..."

    National sentiment was now truly clamped down. In the April 19th, 1978 edition of the Guardian, it states that: Soviet authorities have reinstated Georgian as the official language of Soviet Georgia after demonstrations there last week over a proposed new constitution which had eliminated the language as the republic's official tongue. The demonstrations occurred on Friday in the Georgian capital of Tbilisi, when several hundred university students apparently marched from the campus about a mile through the city centre to the steps of the Government's buildings where the Georgian Supreme Soviet was meeting to adopt the new constitution... Georgians, who comprise most of the population, apparently interpreted this change to mean further 'russification' of their republic." In 1986 the Kazakh SSR experienced more significant protests which then turned into riots when Dinmukhamed Konayev was dismissed from his post and an ethnic Russian, Kolbin, who had never set foot in the Kazakh SSR prior, was appointed as Konayev's successor.

    In the end, Russification alienated the people. By 1991 only the Central Asian states truly showed interest in keeping the Union together, if only because they would be hit badly by its fall. Russian chauvinism spearheaded the fall of the USSR, with many Russians feeling that the "backwards" people of the East were holding them down. And so evil started within the borders of the USSR and ended within its borders. Soviet social-imperialism had come to an end.
    Last edited by Barack Dalai Lama; 04-23-2009 at 11:31 PM.

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    Ambulatory Blender MrShrike's Avatar
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    No offense, but no-one is going to read that, let alone respond to it.

    Did you want to perhaps write a much shorter thread, where people may actually respond.

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    UH OH CHINA IN TROUBLE Barack Dalai Lama's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrShrike View Post
    No offense, but no-one is going to read that, let alone respond to it.

    Did you want to perhaps write a much shorter thread, where people may actually respond.
    No, because you cannot explain Soviet social-imperialism without showing examples, unless you just want me to say "hurr angola, afghanistan, hungary, cuba, czechoslovakia, mongolia, tuva... are examples of soviet social-imperialism so there."

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    Journeyman Cocksmith Mr. E's Avatar
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    People tend to be self-serving, so of course someone who is in favor of centrally planned economies would condemn American imperialism while condoning Soviet imperialism.

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    Canned Kal El's Avatar
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    I know coquavien will give me an infraction for this no i won't, but thanks anyways

    Although while I do applaud the fact you took time to attempt to write a moving piece of literature, I however cannot condone you MrDie for being an enormous lifeless faggot. I am sure there are a million other more potentially gratifying activities you could have conducted Mr Die, as well as the fact you are basically posting your work for critical review, and are doing nothing to start discussion.

    this is an example of a post I don't want to see in AI. It's a poor flame job, contribtues nothing to the conversation at hand and is, in short, a waste of space and internet. So, don't post like this, please.
    Last edited by coqauvin; 04-25-2009 at 01:29 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by KT_ View Post
    Yes.

    Yesterday I was playing the Mirror's Edge demo while a dude was eating me out. Mirror's Edge is fucking awesome. I'm excited.
    Quote Originally Posted by victrola View Post
    he may be a faggot but in this case he is correct

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    I killed Tupac Shinysides's Avatar
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    For the record, if you can't summarize your point clearly in succinct way, you don't know your material well enough to have a well-formed opinion on it anyways. The fact that you believe you can't break that down into something readable tells me one of two things; A) You don't know what you're talking about or admittedly more likely, B) You love to listen to yourself talk.

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    UH OH CHINA IN TROUBLE Barack Dalai Lama's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinysides View Post
    For the record, if you can't summarize your point clearly in succinct way, you don't know your material well enough to have a well-formed opinion on it anyways. The fact that you believe you can't break that down into something readable tells me one of two things; A) You don't know what you're talking about or admittedly more likely, B) You love to listen to yourself talk.
    I guess those that write 160-page books (compared to this, which if put into OpenOffice is less than 20 pages) love to listen to themselves talk too, dippy.

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    I killed Tupac Shinysides's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barack Dalai Lama View Post
    I guess those that write 160-page books (compared to this, which if put into OpenOffice is less than 20 pages) love to listen to themselves talk too, dippy.
    No, they are published authors with great knowledge on a specific subject who are dispersing that greater knowledge to others in the form of written word. You are just trying to toot your own horn and show everyone on CD exactly how much you know about Soviet Social-Imerialism, which I actually don't doubt that you do. In fact I'm sure you have at least some grasp on the concept, undoubtedly more so than I. However, your essay is not written to educate, or spark discussion, it is to show exactly how much you know on the subject. And that is why you cant summarize it for anyone, you aren't willing to break it down into something simple. You want everyone to read the whole damn thing and then praise you for writing it.

    Well, I can tell you now, no one on here cares enough to read it, and even if they did, no ones gonna be impressed. Congrats on reading one book on the subject as it's clear that's all you did.

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    UH OH CHINA IN TROUBLE Barack Dalai Lama's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinysides View Post
    Congrats on reading one book on the subject as it's clear that's all you did.
    "One book" includes A Coming of Age: Albania under Enver Hoxha, Affirmative Action Empire, Tribal Nation: The Making of Soviet Turkmenistan, two books on Ethiopia, a book on Somalia, and various reads from various sources on various other countries, not to mention online reads from sites like Alliance ML (which used to put pamphlets and small books online before implosion). Ironically I've never read a book specifically related to Soviet imperialism nor have I found one. (Unless Enver Hoxha and Mao's speeches count) I'm sure if I had books like The Soviet Union in the Horn of Africa, To Moscow, Not Mecca: The Soviet Campaign Against Islam in Central Asia, 1917-1941, etc. then this would be even longer, but they cost far too much (or in the case of the RCPUSA pamphlet see

    And the original topic was on a forum of likeminded individuals, so yes it was designed to educate those who were new.
    Last edited by Barack Dalai Lama; 04-25-2009 at 01:07 AM.

  10. #10
    I killed Tupac Shinysides's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barack Dalai Lama View Post
    "One book" includes A Coming of Age: Albania under Enver Hoxha, Affirmative Action Empire, Tribal Nation: The Making of Soviet Turkmenistan, two books on Ethiopia, a book on Somalia, and various reads from various sources on various other countries, not to mention online reads from sites like Alliance ML (which used to put pamphlets and small books online before implosion). Ironically I've never read a book specifically related to Soviet imperialism nor have I found one. (Unless Enver Hoxha and Mao's speeches count)
    Either way, I really don't care how much you've read. Maybe I was wrong about that. But feel free to respond to the rest of my post, as I feel it was pretty much dead on.

    Edit: And that's just fine on whatever other website you posted it on. But here, your 20 pages of deadpan information means nothing. AI is here to discuss pretty much anything intellectually. That doesn't change the fact that the only reason you made this thread was to try and display your knowledge rather than educate or spark some sort of discussion, as I said earlier. AI is about debate, not educating the other posters.
    Last edited by Shinysides; 04-25-2009 at 01:11 AM.

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    ))) joke, relax ;) coqauvin's Avatar
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    AI is still about educating other posters, especially if you are pushing forward a viewpoint that others do not know much about. It's not a lectern for you to preach at, but it is still, ideally, a place of enlightenment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coqauvin View Post
    AI is still about educating other posters, especially if you are pushing forward a viewpoint that others do not know much about. It's not a lectern for you to preach at, but it is still, ideally, a place of enlightenment.
    Yeah, my comment saying that AI isn't about education was hastily made.

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    λεγιων ονομα μοι sycld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barack Dalai Lama View Post
    I am of the opinion that Soviet social-imperialism began early, though it did not take on such an aggressive/superpower form until the 1950's when Stalin died and Khrushchev (and successors) drifted away from socialism. Early social-imperialism was also (in my opinion) fairly genuine in its intention (though still imperialist) to maintain socialism whereas after the 40's it was simply a way of gaining profit.
    wait a second... weren't you defending stalin before?

    also, i'm so happy you managed to find AI. i hope you'll restrict your communist rantings to this forum.


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    UH OH CHINA IN TROUBLE Barack Dalai Lama's Avatar
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    wait a second... weren't you defending stalin before?
    Yes, note how I said fairly genuine in its intention (as in, focused on preserving and spreading socialism, but in the end laid the seeds for an imperialist outlook when the USSR went revisionist).

    Either way buddy, it has been, and still is, one of the poorest countries in Europe. I don't really care what Hoxha did, what King Zog did, or what the country is up too now. They are still one of the poorest countries in Europe.
    Apparently a perquisite for socialism to be successful requires magic. Modernization, sovereignty and political influence (when the country had none of them before) seemingly do not matter. Using this logic, China's position from an impoverished warlord-ridden state in the 1930's to what it is today doesn't matter because China was certainly in a better position than Albania was in the 30's.

    Notice where I said "I just threw around Imperialist since MrDie gets off to that."
    So basically this:
    And you are defending China, which in itself after Mao Zedong took power, was an imperialist power per say. It's influence that it exerted over Vietnam and North Korea is timeless. It's claim to Taiwan, is imperialist in nature. Just attempting to spread communism to other countries, in itself is imperialist.
    Was a waste of time.
    Last edited by Barack Dalai Lama; 05-01-2009 at 05:49 AM.

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    λεγιων ονομα μοι sycld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barack Dalai Lama View Post
    Yes, note how I said fairly genuine in its intention (as in, focused on preserving and spreading socialism, but in the end laid the seeds for an imperialist outlook when the USSR went revisionist).
    how?

    by heading such a harsh and brutal regime that people started to become severely discontent with the government?

    also, though it's off topic, what do you think about yevgeny yevtushenko? i had the pleasure of performing in front of him a choral setting of his texts that shostakovich had composed in october of 2007.


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    UH OH CHINA IN TROUBLE Barack Dalai Lama's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sycld View Post
    how?

    by heading such a harsh and brutal regime that people started to become severely discontent with the government?
    In Mongolia? In Tuva? This thread is about Soviet Social-Imperialism and when it came to internal politics in the SSRs Stalin was actually in ways better than Lenin. He created institutions for Muslims (Spiritual Administration of the Muslims of Central Asia and Kazakhstan), condemned even SSR chauvinist attitudes towards ASSRs (e.g. Georgian SSR vs. Abkhazian ASSR), under him the Ukrainian language was strongly promoted (and probably saved the language from being irrelevant, as Russians in the Ukraine were forced to learn Ukrainian), and basically although the seeds for social-imperialism in the capitalist sense (trying to rule the world basically in a search for profit) were unintentionally sown, the results did not appear until the 50's, 60's, 70's, etc. under revisionists such as Khrushchev, Brezhnev, etc.

    what do you think about yevgeny yevtushenko? i had the pleasure of performing in front of him a choral setting of his texts that shostakovich had composed in october of 2007.
    He seemed like the type of guy Khrushchev needed to paint himself as a 'legitimate' Communist vis-à-vis Molotov, etc. during the 'thaw.' Then he supported Gorbachev later on. It's safe to say he isn't a Communist. Other than that I have no opinion.

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    λεγιων ονομα μοι sycld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barack Dalai Lama View Post
    In Mongolia? In Tuva? This thread is about Soviet Social-Imperialism and when it came to internal politics in the SSRs Stalin was actually in ways better than Lenin. He created institutions for Muslims (Spiritual Administration of the Muslims of Central Asia and Kazakhstan), condemned even SSR chauvinist attitudes towards ASSRs (e.g. Georgian SSR vs. Abkhazian ASSR), under him the Ukrainian language was strongly promoted (and probably saved the language from being irrelevant, as Russians in the Ukraine were forced to learn Ukrainian), and basically although the seeds for social-imperialism in the capitalist sense (trying to rule the world basically in a search for profit) were unintentionally sown, the results did not appear until the 50's, 60's, 70's, etc. under revisionists such as Khrushchev, Brezhnev, etc.
    That's interesting, as it paints a picture in sharp contrast the characterisations of Social Imperialism in Mongolia and Tuva. That sounds a lot more like the "soft power" the Britih used in their colonies, where pandering to the wants and needs of the inhabitants of their colonies made them content enough to be ruled by an outside power.

    I find the official sanctioning of Islam in Central Asia a particularly surprising capitulation.

    He seemed like the type of guy Khrushchev needed to paint himself as a 'legitimate' Communist vis-à-vis Molotov, etc. during the 'thaw.' Then he supported Gorbachev later on. It's safe to say he isn't a Communist. Other than that I have no opinion.
    I know this thread about Social Imperialism, but I will never ceased to be amazed at how you seem to be incapable of thinking of things in any other terms other than "revolutionary" or "reactionary." What a tiny world you must live in.


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    Senior Member D.Erync's Avatar
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    Default Soviet Social Imperialism An Introduction

    Btw, the new catch phrase is "Co-Op Healthcare." Ever belong to a homeowners association or have to go before a Co-Op Board for anything? And hows that 401k concept working out for you?

    Just saying.

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    ))) joke, relax ;) coqauvin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.Erync View Post
    Btw, the new catch phrase is "Co-Op Healthcare." Ever belong to a homeowners association or have to go before a Co-Op Board for anything? And hows that 401k concept working out for you?

    Just saying.
    what

    are you trying to say that universal health care is negatively linked to soviet-social imperialism? and that going to a homeowner's association meeting to plead a case, or speak to a co-op board is equally evilly communist?

    would you care to explain this batshit insanity?

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    Just a heads-up, the most updated version of this (and the only one I'd actually be updating) is at: http://www.revleft.com/vb/soviet-soc...563/index.html

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    Since Atmosfear enjoys being a cheerleader for anarchism and deleted* my other thread, I can safely say that this one still stands.

    * Being trashed still qualifies as deleted.
    Last edited by Husein; 04-03-2010 at 07:40 AM.

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    ))) joke, relax ;) coqauvin's Avatar
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    FYI, I deleted your thread. There was nothing resembling anything other than a flames thread coming out of it.

    I left this thread alone because there was actually some conversation about the topic. If you write giant walls of text that no one cares to read or chat about, I'm going to trash them.

    mrdie let me give you a tip: the first rule of good writing is brevity. not masturbating to yourself over your word/quotation choice.

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    What sort of discussion came out of this besides Kal El going all "HA HA ALBANIA ALSO MY APOLOGISM FOR SOVIET SOCIAL-IMPERIALISM"?

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    ))) joke, relax ;) coqauvin's Avatar
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    sycld had a couple comments?

    this is still 200% better than your last thread, only because it got replies on topic. now stop whining

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    Senior Member Jim Jones's Avatar
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    Man two years ago I had some wrong views.

    The Bolshevik activities in Turkestan were not social-imperialist, nor were Soviet actions in Mongolia, Tuva, the Baltics, Poland, Eastern Europe ('cept after the 1960's with Khrushchev's so-called "socialist division of labor") or Hungary (although Khrushchev backed Nagy to begin with.)

    Otherwise yeah my post is still good. In January 2010 I wrote this, which is also pretty good: http://www.revleft.com/vb/anti-imper....html?t=128292

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