Results 1 to 40 of 40

Thread: Soviet Social-Imperialism: An Introduction

  1. #1
    UH OH CHINA IN TROUBLE Barack Dalai Lama's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    258
    Credits
    20
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default Soviet Social-Imperialism: An Introduction

    I posted this in another forum, but I'm also posting it here since I remember talking to many liberals who supported Soviet imperialism (mainly in Angola and Afghanistan) while hypocritically being against American imperialism.

    Social-Imperialism on Wiki:
    Social-imperialism is a Marxist expression, typically used in a derogatory fashion, to describe people, parties, or nations that are "socialist in words, imperialist in deeds". The phrase was first used in Marxist circles during the early 20th C discussions on the position of the international workers' movement towards the impending European war and particularly in regards to the Social Democratic Party of Germany. In this context it is very similar to, but not interchangeable with, the terms social chauvinism and social patriotism

    In later decades the most significant use of the phrase has been in the Maoist critique of the Soviet Union. Mao argued that the Soviet Union had itself become an imperialist power while maintaining a socialist façade. Albanian Communist leader Enver Hoxha originally agreed with Mao in this analysis, before later using the expression to condemn China's Three Worlds Theory.
    I am of the opinion that Soviet social-imperialism began early, though it did not take on such an aggressive/superpower form until the 1950's when Stalin died and Khrushchev (and successors) drifted away from socialism. Early social-imperialism was also (in my opinion) fairly genuine in its intention (though still imperialist) to maintain socialism whereas after the 40's it was simply a way of gaining profit.

    I. De-Turkification of Central Asia

    Upon the rise of the Soviet Union in 1922 to replace the Russian SFSR as the main force of socialism in the lands, the Soviet Republics in Central Asia underwent campaigns to discourage Pan-Turkism. This was because during the efforts of Ismail Enver across Central Asia and the ensuring Basmachi Revolt, many Central Asian nationalities rose up against Russian chauvinism. Though the Bolsheviks addressed this as a danger to the construction of socialism in Central Asia, the Ukraine, etc. they also practiced a policy of divide-and-rule among these groups, pointing out and amplifying their differences to ward off a Pan-Turkist uprising. Progressive Pan-Turkists such as Sultan-Galiev who joined the Bolsheviks only out of the belief that they upheld true self-determination were purged by the 1940's (Sultan-Galiev made the mistake of trying to tactically align with Trotsky against Stalin in the 1920's, to which Trotsky rejected). The independent (in theory) Soviet Republics ceased to be independent after the 30's, now all nearly uncritically supporting the Russian SFSR line, which was the line of the Soviet Union.

    II. Mongolian People's Republic

    The second nominally socialist state in history, the Mongolians cast off the monarchy in 1924 but many relied upon the Soviet Union for economic and ideological aid. Regardless, many Mongolians did not care for Soviet-style socialism, and the leaders of Mongolia did not feel that atheism would work well in advancing Mongolian socialism. This however began to change in the 1930's. Peljidiin Genden, Mongolian progressive leader, was purged in 1937 in Moscow rather than being tried in his own nation. He allegedly used the predecessor to the term Social-Imperialism, "Red Imperialism."

    Under Khorloogiin Choibalsan the Mongolian state developed and pursued a semi-independent foreign policy centered on expanding Mongol territory into Xinjiang and Inner Mongolia. Under his long-ruling successor Yumjaagiin Tsedenbal the Soviets treated Mongolia as an outright puppet state, with many Soviet troops deployed within. Pro-Chinese sympathies within Mongolia were looked upon with deep suspicion and many army members were purged throughout the 1960's and 70's. Mongolia abandoned its status as a People's Republic semi-quietly in 1992, with the end of the Soviet Union removing the security of Soviet troops and protests forcing reform.

    III. Tuvan People's Republic

    The history of Tuva in the period of 1921-1944 is essentially that of a more condensed version of Mongolian history. Declared in 1921, the Tuvan state was ruled by progressives until a combination of resistance to atheism, support of the Genden rule in Mongolia, and refusal to collectivize resulted in yet another purge of the leadership, with Donduk Kuular's fall clearly a result of Soviet interests. The Communist University of the Toilers of the East produced the new leaders of the state, which was all but a part of the Soviet Union proper until 1944. That same year it was apparent that Tuva had more to gain by being a part of the Soviet Union (and risked purges if it did not), and so the Tuvan parliament voted for its incorporation as the Tuvan Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic.

    IV. The Baltic States

    As a result of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, which was a result of France and Great Britain shunning the Soviet-proposed Collective Security idea against an expansionist Germany, the Baltic States were 'given' to the Soviet Union at Soviet insistance to prevent a possible invasion of German troops from these states into Leningrad and other areas. Many of the Baltic states were ruled by ex-White Army officials who were thus extremely anti-Soviet, and these states ensured that the populations would agree with their leaders on this issue. The Soviets invaded, and despite resistance managed to hold onto the Republics as SSRs. Though these SSRs were profitable by the 1980's and ensured more access to the sea, the people within them were among (with the Ukrainians) the most eager to leave the Union in 1991.

    V. Poland

    As a result of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, it was agreed that Poland would be divided to prevent the possibility of it aligning with the other state or being the source of intrigue between the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany. The Soviets wanted their piece due to the obvious concern of a Nazi invasion into Leningrad and other areas being made far easier. After World War II the Polish governments were generally pro-Soviet but in the 1980's military rule replaced party rule as workers united under the Solidarity trade union. Poland abandoned socialism in 1989 with most other Warsaw Pact states.

    VI. Eastern Europe

    The defeat of Nazi Germany left a divided Europe, with the Soviets adhering to the term People's Democracies, originated by Georgi Dimitrov. This meant that these states would be nominally 'popular', meaning they could pursue either capitalism (pro-West) or socialism (pro-East, aka Soviet), or perhaps simple neutrality. In reality however once the pro-Soviet movements gained strength they were able to overcome the pro-West elements and take control. The Warsaw Pact, founded in 1955, consolidated these states under Soviet control. Also during the 1950's was Khrushchev's specialization policy, which meant that these nations would be developing specific resource outputs of their own, which would in theory strengthen the Warsaw Pact by largely reducing the lack of certain resources many of the nations faced. In reality however this reduced these states to neo-colonialism, and only Albania refused.

    By the late 1980's these states quickly broke down and the Warsaw Pact was dissolved in 1991.

    VII. Hungary: 1956

    An inefficient Working People's Party failed to captivate the masses. As a result, a large anti-Soviet uprising began which united both dissident Communists and reactionaries against the state. The Soviet Union invaded soon after, defeating the uprising while also replacing the discredited party with a total puppet party known as the Socialist Workers' Party.

    VIII. Czechoslovakia: 1968

    After a fairly independent leader known as Alexander Dubchek rose to power as First Secretary of the Communist Party of Czechoslovakia, he began moving to the right and slowly repudiated Communism (which meant Soviet-style socialism) in favor of Social Democracy. The Soviets, afraid of losing an unwilling ally, formulated the Brezhnev Doctrine. The Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia resulted in yet another puppet leader and scared the rest of the Warsaw Pact states into total allegiance with the exception of Albania, which withdrew the same year, condemning the Soviets as social-imperialists.

    IX. Albania

    Albania was the only nation occupied during World War II whose independence was not determined by a great power, along with Yugoslavia. The Yugoslavs however soon dominated the Albanian state until the Soviet-Yugoslav Split which resulted in the defeat of the pro-Yugoslav line of the Albanian Communist Party led by Kochi Xoxe. The Albanians enjoyed strong relations with the Soviet Union until the 1950's, when it rejected Khrushchev's specialization policy and Khrushchev's 'Secret Speech' of 1956 as revisionist. A submarine base was built on the island of Sazan near Vlora, which the Soviets attempted to claim control of to no success after the Albanians spurned them. Furthermore, Khrushchev gave subtle support to Greek separatism in southern Albania as another action designed to have Albania relent and give up its independent position. In his memoirs, Khrushchev said of Hoxha that he "was like a dog who bites the hand that feeds it." Albania successfuly resisted Soviet social-imperialism and spoke out against it in 1968 (Czechoslovakia) and 1979 (Afghanistan).

    X. Cuba

    After a popular revolution overthrew the discredited Fulgencio Batista (who was so hated that the Americans hoped to overthrow him and install Col. Ramon Barquin in his place), Fidel Castro came to power saying that "Capitalism sacrifices man, the Communist state sacrifices man. . Our revolution is not red, but olive-green, the colour of the rebel army." As Castro quickly shifted to the left however, the Americans became extremely hostile and Castro found an ally in the Soviet Union. Though relations were not extremely close, they quickly grew throughout the 1960's. The Soviets wanted sugar production to be the focus of Cuba (as per Khrushchev's specialization policy within the Warsaw Pact), and Castro agreed. In the book Castroism: Theory and Practice, it notes that "Castro announced... that his whole new economic policy was postulated on a spectacular increase in sugar production, aimed at reaching 10 million tons by 1970. Agricultural diversification went backward instead of forward. For example, rice production had advanced to a high point of 181,000 tons in 1957, two years before Castro, and plunged to 95,400 tons in 1962, after three years of Castro. Cuba had been forced to reorganise its entire economy." In other words, "Castro announced a reorientation of the Cuban economy towards agriculture, in particular the growing of sugar cane and cattle-raising."

    This alienated Che Guevara, who, in Cuba - Exception or Vanguard?, stressed that "Under-development or distorted development, carries with it a dangerous specialisation in raw materials, containing a threat of hunger for all our people. We, 'the under-developed', are those of the single crop, the single product, and the single market. A single product whose uncertain sale depends upon a single market, which imposes and sets conditions. This is the great formula of imperial economic domination which is combined with the old and always useful Roman formula, 'divide and conquer.'" In the end, as Daniel Jame's book Che Guevara notes of Che's comments to the Egyptian weekly Akher Saa, "Che roundly castigated the Russians as 'revisionists'" "Che's embrace of a kind of Maoism and his search for ideas that led him outside (Soviet) Marxism-Leninism could be, and were, construed in Moscow to be be anti-Soviet. Che had to go. His repeated public attacks upon the Soviet Union had finally become intolerable to the Kremlin, whose representatives had served notice of their displeasure on Premier Fidel Castro, leaving Castro with no real choice, since Moscow's economic aid kept his government and economy afloat." "Che himself was not seen anywhere in public after returning from Africa, excepting one appearance at a lecture he gave towards the end of March (1965). Che never turned up again at the Ministry of Industry following his March lecture there.. He... had suddenly and mysteriously disappeared from public view."

    In the end, Che was captured in Bolivia and shot. His diaries (published in 1968 as Bolivian Diary) noted that one of the main causes of Che's defeat were "Treacherous leaders.... Their true purpose was to destroy guerilla movements in the bud, to slow down all revolutionary action, and to put in its place their own absurd and despicable political deals" Daniel James stated in his book that "The Bolivian Communists deserve all the criticism Castro gives them, for they did indeed play a 'treacherous' role which contributed mightily, perhaps decisively, to Che's failure." Could the pro-Soviet Communist Party of Bolivia have been to blame?

    Throughout the 1970's and 80's the Cubans continued to move ever closer to the Soviets. They participated in pro-Soviet interventions abroad (see XI and XII) and as Sebastian Balfour's 1990 book Castro notes, in 1976 "[a] new constitution largely modelled on that of the Soviet Union was approved in a referendum in 1976." Cuban dependence on the Soviet Union was so great that in a 1992 interview with Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera Castro stated that "Our basic problems are the economic blockade and the disappearance of the socialist camp. Some 85 percent of our trade was with those countries.. The value of our sugar in fact, balanced the cost of the petroleum we got from the USSR... That trade has almost disappeared with the disappearance of the socialist countries. We had to turn to new markest. We have lost imports, credit, and technology, and sought fuel, raw materials, and drugs elsewhere." In the Guardian in the same year, he said that "I can't say that Gorbachev played a conscious part in the destruction of the Soviet Union, because I have no doubt that Gorbachev's aim was to struggle to perfect socialism." Pro-Soviet to the end, or even beyond that end.

    XI. Angola

    In struggle with Portuguese colonialism were chiefly the two parties known as the Popular Movement for the Liberation of Angola (MPLA) and the National Union for the Total Independence of Angola (UNITA). Both anti-colonialist, the MPLA declared itself nominally socialist and loyal to the Soviets while UNITA was vaguely socialist and somewhat loyal, but always independently-minded, of the Chinese. Over time both the MPLA and UNITA proved to be very popular among Angolans albeit in different areas and among different ethnic groups. A chronic and extremely long civil war raged after the fall of Portuguese colonialism in 1975, with the MPLA leading the state.

    Afraid of losing influence in this huge battle (UNITA allegedly received support at various times from Bulgaria, Egypt, France, Israel, Morocco, the People's Republic of China, North Korea (although North Korea later recognized the MPLA government), Saudi Arabia, South Africa, the United States, Zaire, and Zambia while the MPLA was supported by Algeria, Bulgaria, Cape Verde Islands, Czechoslovakia, the Congo, Guinea-Bissau, Morocco, Mozambique, Nigeria, North Korea, the People's Republic of China, Romania, São Tomé and Príncipe, the Soviet Union, Sudan, Tanzania, Vietnam, and Yugoslavia), the Soviets were pleased to see the Cubans invade on behalf of the MPLA as UNITA turned opportunist due to lack of Chinese aid and turned to the Americans and South Africans for aid. In the end, the Cubans ensured MPLA rule though UNITA continued to struggle beyond the collapse of the USSR and the MPLA's turn to the right, with the US even abandoning UNITA in support of the MPLA. The civil war did not end until 2002, when UNITA leader Jonas Savimbi was finally killed, ending the 20+ year war.

    Perhaps Enver Hoxha summed it best. "The Soviet Union also involves its allies, or better, its satellites in its interference. We are seeing this concretely in Africa, where the Soviet social-imperialist and their Cuban mercenaries are intervening on the pretext that they are assisting the revolution. This is a lie. Their intervention is nothing but a colonialist action aimed at capturing markets and subjugating peoples... They have never had the slightest intention of assisting the Angolan revolution, but their aim was and is to get their claws into that African country which had won a certain independence after the expulsion of the Portuguese colonialists The Cuban mercenaries are the colonial army dispatched by the Soviet Union to capture markets and strategic positions in the countries of Black Africa, and to go on from Angola to other states, to enable the Soviet social-imperialists, too , to create a modern colonial empire.... Agostinho Neto is playing the game of the Soviets. In the struggle against the other faction, in order to seize power for himself, he called in the Soviets to help him. The struggle between the two opposing Angolan clans did not have anything of a people's revolutionary character."

    XII. Ogaden War: Ethiopia versus Somalia

    In 1969 the Somali government was overthrown by the military, led by socialist Siad Barre, who was involved in the Soviet-trained army. Though it would seem like Somalia would be yet another pro-Soviet state, this did not occur. Barre repudiated the official atheist line of the Soviet Union and proclaimed Scientific Socialism the basis of his state, while attempting to integrate socialism with the Somali Islamic culture. Church and state were separated, clan warfare fought, and great advances made. A massive literacy campaign titled Bar ama Baro (Teach or Learn) was put in place where a large amount civil servants numbering up to 40,000 students were sent to the countryside to educate the nomads in literacy and by 1977, more than 70% of the Somali population had passed literacy tests, a result that had astonished the World and an achievement that was viewed by United Nations as one of the most successful mass-urban literacy campaign ever recorded. The founder of African Socialist, Julius Nyerere, admired Barre and at a 1974 Mogadishu OAU meeting declared that "The Somalis are practicing what we in Tanzania teach." Though relations with the Soviets remained fairly close (Barre met with many pro-Soviet leaders including Castro, for instance), Barre simply wanted security from US imperialism. Ideologically however, Barre drew more from Maoism and African Socialism than he ever did Soviet Marxism-Leninism.

    Cut to 1974, the Ethiopian monarchy is overthrown by leftist military men who united into what was known as the Derg. Mengistu Haile Mariam gradually consolidates his position and becomes Chairman of the Derg in 1977. Though Mengistu was a leftist who, like Barre, enjoyed mixing ideologies. He combined Soviet Marxism-Leninism, some aspects of Maoism, and Amharic nationalism which backfired and alienated Ethiopia's many ethnic groups, especially Muslim Somalis and Oromos. As authors Marina and David Ottaway note in their book Afrocommunism however, "[f]rom an average of about $10 million a year between 1969 and 1974, US military deliveries [in Ethiopia] reached a total value of $18.5 million in 1974-75, $26 million in 1975-76 and almost $135 million in 1976-77." In the book Talk of the Devil, a series of interviews of former leaders by Riccardo Orizio, he interviews Mengistu after his fall from power. Mengistu alluded that he was an opportunist and just tried to get aid from whomever he could.

    Relations between Somalia and Ethiopia deteriorated however. The Ethiopian government cracked down on Somali separatism in the Ogaden region, as many Somalis associated themselves with the Pan-Somali and Islam-friendly government of Barre in Somalia rather than the Amharic-based, atheistic government of Mengistu. The Western Somali Liberation Front was formed to coordinate these Somalis into open rebellion, and in 1977 war began between Somalia and Ethiopia over the region. The Somalis quickly moved on to bigger and better victories until suddenly alliances switched. The Soviets, convinced that their interests in the Red Sea were better served by a more pro-Soviet leader of a stronger state, sided with Ethiopia and abandoned Somalia. The Cubans then arrived with massive military assistance and drove the Somalis out of the Ogaden. The war ended a year later with Ethiopia victorious.

    As the years went on the Somali economy continued to be damaged by both the abrupt loss of Soviet trade and the losses of the Somali war. This however was not the only issue. Many pro-Ethiopian rebellions began in the north, but this was not about ethnic issues but tribal ones. These tribal rebellions grew as the government continued its leftist programs and centralization policies. By the mid 80's the rebels quickly made gains while Barre offered ceasefires. They were rejected by leaders who were now resemling warlords. In 1988 Ethiopia and Somalia patched up relations and vowed to stay out of each others affairs but by then it was too late. US-backed tribal groups soon began to emerge as Barre (who sought US aid during the Ogaden War and continued some trade with the US in the following years) distanced himself from the US and vice-versa. In 1991 he was forced to flee, and Somalia has been in anarchy ever since, Barre having never recanted his socialism.

    In Ethiopia, Mengistu's policies proved to be his undoing. Organized resistance among ethnic lines quickly appeared led chiefly by the Tigrayan People's Liberation Front, the Eritrean People's Liberation Front, and the Oromo Liberation Front. In the 1980's famine hit, and by 1991 Mengistu was forced to flee from his nation, having alienated every ethnic group but his own. He later blamed a lack of Soviet aid starting in the late 80's as the chief cause of his failure to hold onto power.

    XIII. Afghanistan

    In the 1950's Afghanistan was a monarchy led by a King whose powers were quickly becoming constitutional. Daoud, a cousin of the King, became Prime Minister. A Pashtun nationalist and anti-communist, he nevertheless became increasingly pro-Soviet until being forced to resign in 1963 over concerns of his relations with them. In the 1960's Afghanistan became a de jure constitutional monarchy and the pro-Soviet People's Democratic Party was founded in 1965. It was soon divided into two factions, the Parcham (who were reformist) and the Khalq (who were revolutionary, at least within the limits of a pro-Soviet framework). Though the PDP (both factions) gained in legislative victories in 1969, the Shola-y-Jaweid (a Maoist, later Hoxhaist movement) remained more popular among students and those of the Hazara ethnic group (opposed to the PDP's Pashtun nationalist leaders) while also remaining underground.

    In 1973 with Soviet and PDP support, Daoud overthrew the monarchy and declared a Republic. He allowed the Parcham into his cabinet but was critical of the Khalq who regarded him as reactionary. Over time however Daoud began to purge the Communists and improve ties with non-Soviet states. The army, now loyal to the Khalq, overthrew Daoud in 1978 and declared a Democratic Republic. The PDP was now Khalq-dominated but policies mirroring the Soviets quickly alienated Afghan society, which began massive rebellions that soon spread to the entire country by 1979. Opposition to the Soviets by Communists was attacked (such as the Shola-y-Jaweid) and forced underground, with most joining the growing rebellions. It was clear that change was necessary. Hafizullah Amin overthrew the discredited Mohammed Taraki and began reaching out to the Americans (who were funding some of the rebels) for help.

    The Soviets decided that losing Afghanistan in their sphere of influence was intolerable, and invaded in December of 1979. Amin was killed (for being a "CIA agent") and the Parcham were brought back in power. For ten years the Soviet war in Afghanistan became the Soviet equivalent of the Vietnam War. By 1987 Soviet leader Gorbachev decided that the massive and unending losses in the Afghan war warranted a withdraw, which was accomplished in 1989. The Afghan government essentially abandoned upholding socialism by 1992, when it was finally overthrown. Soviet social-imperialism beyond its own borders came to an end with the end of the war as the Soviet Union began its road to dissolution.

    XIV. Russification of the Soviet Union

    In the 1940's Russification began. Khrushchev in the Ukraine for example was one of the pioneers, condemning those who felt that Russians were still by far the dominant group within the Soviet Union. By the 1970's however Russification truly began to take hold. By the 60's, the Uzbek SSR for example was focused entirely on cotton exporting to the other Soviet Republics, yet another specialization policy. As the National Composition of the Populations of the SSRs in 1964 states: "The climatic conditions and specific features of agricultural production in the republics of Central Asia and the Caucasus... demand workers with the necessary knowledge and labour habits of farming in these areas. Such workers are, above all, the native peoples of these regions. The mass recruitment of this population into industry, transport, construction, etc., might weaken the development of quite important sectors of agriculture. In planning the development of the economy, the specific features of such regions are taken into account. For example, in the Seven-Year Plan of developing the economy of the USSR for 1959-65, it is indicated that the Uzbek SSR will continue in the future to be the main cotton base of the country. Therefore, basic attention in Uzbekistan will continue to be devoted to the development of cotton growing"

    Resistance in the Uzbek SSR however was wrong. In 1971, Problems of the Optimisation of the Development of Light Industry in Uzbekistan in the light of the Decisions of the 24th Congress of the CPSU stated that "Uzbekistan produces 70% of All-Union output of cotton lint, 38% of raw silk and 90% of kenaf fibre. Yet only 2.8% of cotton cloth manufactured in the country, 2.7% of clothes and shoes, 2.6% of knitwear and 2.1% of stockings and socks, are produced here, while the steadily growing share of the republic in the population of the USSR reached 5% in 1970. By quantity of output per capita of light industry products, Uzbekistan occupies one of the last places in the Soviet Union... "Just in the past five-year plan, the average tempos of growth in output of light industry were 8.5% for the nation as a whole, but 3.6% for Uzbekistan... During the past 35 years not a single cotton textile combine has been built in the Uzbek SSR. Up to now, there are no enterprises for manufacturing woolen fabrics and blankets. There are few knitwear, garment and shoe factories..."

    National sentiment was now truly clamped down. In the April 19th, 1978 edition of the Guardian, it states that: Soviet authorities have reinstated Georgian as the official language of Soviet Georgia after demonstrations there last week over a proposed new constitution which had eliminated the language as the republic's official tongue. The demonstrations occurred on Friday in the Georgian capital of Tbilisi, when several hundred university students apparently marched from the campus about a mile through the city centre to the steps of the Government's buildings where the Georgian Supreme Soviet was meeting to adopt the new constitution... Georgians, who comprise most of the population, apparently interpreted this change to mean further 'russification' of their republic." In 1986 the Kazakh SSR experienced more significant protests which then turned into riots when Dinmukhamed Konayev was dismissed from his post and an ethnic Russian, Kolbin, who had never set foot in the Kazakh SSR prior, was appointed as Konayev's successor.

    In the end, Russification alienated the people. By 1991 only the Central Asian states truly showed interest in keeping the Union together, if only because they would be hit badly by its fall. Russian chauvinism spearheaded the fall of the USSR, with many Russians feeling that the "backwards" people of the East were holding them down. And so evil started within the borders of the USSR and ended within its borders. Soviet social-imperialism had come to an end.
    Last edited by Barack Dalai Lama; 04-23-2009 at 11:31 PM.

  2. #2
    Ambulatory Blender MrShrike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    438
    Credits
    350
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    No offense, but no-one is going to read that, let alone respond to it.

    Did you want to perhaps write a much shorter thread, where people may actually respond.

  3. #3
    UH OH CHINA IN TROUBLE Barack Dalai Lama's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    258
    Credits
    20
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MrShrike View Post
    No offense, but no-one is going to read that, let alone respond to it.

    Did you want to perhaps write a much shorter thread, where people may actually respond.
    No, because you cannot explain Soviet social-imperialism without showing examples, unless you just want me to say "hurr angola, afghanistan, hungary, cuba, czechoslovakia, mongolia, tuva... are examples of soviet social-imperialism so there."

  4. #4
    Journeyman Cocksmith Mr. E's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    9,835
    Credits
    1,481
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)

    Default

    People tend to be self-serving, so of course someone who is in favor of centrally planned economies would condemn American imperialism while condoning Soviet imperialism.

  5. #5
    Canned Kal El's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Wonderland
    Posts
    2,936
    Credits
    387
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    I know coquavien will give me an infraction for this no i won't, but thanks anyways

    Although while I do applaud the fact you took time to attempt to write a moving piece of literature, I however cannot condone you MrDie for being an enormous lifeless faggot. I am sure there are a million other more potentially gratifying activities you could have conducted Mr Die, as well as the fact you are basically posting your work for critical review, and are doing nothing to start discussion.

    this is an example of a post I don't want to see in AI. It's a poor flame job, contribtues nothing to the conversation at hand and is, in short, a waste of space and internet. So, don't post like this, please.
    Last edited by coqauvin; 04-25-2009 at 01:29 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by KT_ View Post
    Yes.

    Yesterday I was playing the Mirror's Edge demo while a dude was eating me out. Mirror's Edge is fucking awesome. I'm excited.
    Quote Originally Posted by victrola View Post
    he may be a faggot but in this case he is correct

  6. #6
    I killed Tupac Shinysides's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    2,139
    Credits
    20
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    For the record, if you can't summarize your point clearly in succinct way, you don't know your material well enough to have a well-formed opinion on it anyways. The fact that you believe you can't break that down into something readable tells me one of two things; A) You don't know what you're talking about or admittedly more likely, B) You love to listen to yourself talk.

  7. #7
    UH OH CHINA IN TROUBLE Barack Dalai Lama's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    258
    Credits
    20
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinysides View Post
    For the record, if you can't summarize your point clearly in succinct way, you don't know your material well enough to have a well-formed opinion on it anyways. The fact that you believe you can't break that down into something readable tells me one of two things; A) You don't know what you're talking about or admittedly more likely, B) You love to listen to yourself talk.
    I guess those that write 160-page books (compared to this, which if put into OpenOffice is less than 20 pages) love to listen to themselves talk too, dippy.

  8. #8
    I killed Tupac Shinysides's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    2,139
    Credits
    20
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barack Dalai Lama View Post
    I guess those that write 160-page books (compared to this, which if put into OpenOffice is less than 20 pages) love to listen to themselves talk too, dippy.
    No, they are published authors with great knowledge on a specific subject who are dispersing that greater knowledge to others in the form of written word. You are just trying to toot your own horn and show everyone on CD exactly how much you know about Soviet Social-Imerialism, which I actually don't doubt that you do. In fact I'm sure you have at least some grasp on the concept, undoubtedly more so than I. However, your essay is not written to educate, or spark discussion, it is to show exactly how much you know on the subject. And that is why you cant summarize it for anyone, you aren't willing to break it down into something simple. You want everyone to read the whole damn thing and then praise you for writing it.

    Well, I can tell you now, no one on here cares enough to read it, and even if they did, no ones gonna be impressed. Congrats on reading one book on the subject as it's clear that's all you did.

  9. #9
    UH OH CHINA IN TROUBLE Barack Dalai Lama's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    258
    Credits
    20
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinysides View Post
    Congrats on reading one book on the subject as it's clear that's all you did.
    "One book" includes A Coming of Age: Albania under Enver Hoxha, Affirmative Action Empire, Tribal Nation: The Making of Soviet Turkmenistan, two books on Ethiopia, a book on Somalia, and various reads from various sources on various other countries, not to mention online reads from sites like Alliance ML (which used to put pamphlets and small books online before implosion). Ironically I've never read a book specifically related to Soviet imperialism nor have I found one. (Unless Enver Hoxha and Mao's speeches count) I'm sure if I had books like The Soviet Union in the Horn of Africa, To Moscow, Not Mecca: The Soviet Campaign Against Islam in Central Asia, 1917-1941, etc. then this would be even longer, but they cost far too much (or in the case of the RCPUSA pamphlet see

    And the original topic was on a forum of likeminded individuals, so yes it was designed to educate those who were new.
    Last edited by Barack Dalai Lama; 04-25-2009 at 01:07 AM.

  10. #10
    I killed Tupac Shinysides's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    2,139
    Credits
    20
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barack Dalai Lama View Post
    "One book" includes A Coming of Age: Albania under Enver Hoxha, Affirmative Action Empire, Tribal Nation: The Making of Soviet Turkmenistan, two books on Ethiopia, a book on Somalia, and various reads from various sources on various other countries, not to mention online reads from sites like Alliance ML (which used to put pamphlets and small books online before implosion). Ironically I've never read a book specifically related to Soviet imperialism nor have I found one. (Unless Enver Hoxha and Mao's speeches count)
    Either way, I really don't care how much you've read. Maybe I was wrong about that. But feel free to respond to the rest of my post, as I feel it was pretty much dead on.

    Edit: And that's just fine on whatever other website you posted it on. But here, your 20 pages of deadpan information means nothing. AI is here to discuss pretty much anything intellectually. That doesn't change the fact that the only reason you made this thread was to try and display your knowledge rather than educate or spark some sort of discussion, as I said earlier. AI is about debate, not educating the other posters.
    Last edited by Shinysides; 04-25-2009 at 01:11 AM.

  11. #11
    UH OH CHINA IN TROUBLE Barack Dalai Lama's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    258
    Credits
    20
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    No, they are published authors with great knowledge on a specific subject who are dispersing that greater knowledge to others in the form of written word.
    Considering that this is titled "an introduction" and most introduction books (such as Mali: A Search for Direction that I've read recently via Questia) are over 100 pages (the Malian book is 170) yet my relatively simple work is less than 20 and could have been far bigger complete with graphs, timelines and citations, I'd say that my goal (to educate) was met.

    You are just trying to toot your own horn and show everyone on CD exactly how much you know about Soviet Social-Imerialism, which I actually don't doubt that you do. In fact I'm sure you have at least some grasp on the concept, undoubtedly more so than I.
    Actually the reason I made this thread was over a discussion with coqauvin in Flames over making an AI thread. I decided that one on Stalin would be a bit too obvious from me, so I made this one instead.

    However, your essay is not written to educate, or spark discussion, it is to show exactly how much you know on the subject.
    Which is bullshit considering I spread it around on AIM with likeminded individuals who found it useful in debates with others, etc.

    And that is why you cant summarize it for anyone, you aren't willing to break it down into something simple. You want everyone to read the whole damn thing and then praise you for writing it.
    Okay, please tell me how I could, say, simplify Part X (Cuba). This is honestly the best I could do:
    The Soviets wanted sugar production to be the focus of Cuba (as per Khrushchev's specialization policy within the Warsaw Pact), and Castro agreed.

    Throughout the 1970's and 80's the Cubans continued to move ever closer to the Soviets. They participated in pro-Soviet interventions abroad and iin 1976 "[a] new constitution largely modeled on that of the Soviet Union was approved in a referendum in 1976." Cuban dependence on the Soviet Union was so great that in a 1992 interview Castro stated that "Our basic problems are the economic blockade and the disappearance of the socialist camp. Some 85 percent of our trade was with those countries.. The value of our sugar in fact, balanced the cost of the petroleum we got from the USSR... That trade has almost disappeared with the disappearance of the socialist countries. We had to turn to new markets. We have lost imports, credit, and technology, and sought fuel, raw materials, and drugs elsewhere."
    Is it shorter? Yes, but I omitted quite a bit.

    AI is about debate, not educating the other posters.
    I expected some reactions, specifically the part about Afghanistan.

  12. #12
    I killed Tupac Shinysides's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    2,139
    Credits
    20
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barack Dalai Lama View Post
    Considering that this is titled "an introduction" and most introduction books (such as Mali: A Search for Direction that I've read recently via Questia) are over 100 pages (the Malian book is 170) yet my relatively simple work is less than 20 and could have been far bigger complete with graphs, timelines and citations, I'd say that my goal (to educate) was met.

    Actually the reason I made this thread was over a discussion with coqauvin in Flames over making an AI thread. I decided that one on Stalin would be a bit too obvious from me, so I made this one instead.

    Which is bullshit considering I spread it around on AIM with likeminded individuals who found it useful in debates with others, etc.

    Okay, please tell me how I could, say, simplify Part X (Cuba). This is honestly the best I could do:
    Is it shorter? Yes, but I omitted quite a bit.

    I expected some reactions, specifically the part about Afghanistan.
    Okay, I understand a little bit more where you are coming from now, but I still disagree on some points.

    As far as this being an introduction, in my mind that makes it worse. Not to be rude, but you sren't writing a book (unless you are), and even if you were, unless you've done far more study on the subject than it appears, you are in no way qualified to write a book on the subject.

    Keep in mind that most of us reading your post do not have the same interest in this that you do, and we don't need all of this information. Better to give us too little information and leave us wanting more and discussing than give too much and discourage posters from even reading your article.

    As far as reactions, I know that I for one have neither the time, nor the motivation to sit down and read this. I wouldn't have minded debating it had I been given a much smaller portion of text, but the amount posted put me off before I even knew what the subject was. If I wanted to read a book, I'd read a book. AI is about discussion, and your excessively long post discourages people from even reading, much less responding.

  13. #13
    UH OH CHINA IN TROUBLE Barack Dalai Lama's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    258
    Credits
    20
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    As far as this being an introduction, in my mind that makes it worse. Not to be rude, but you sren't writing a book (unless you are), and even if you were, unless you've done far more study on the subject than it appears, you are in no way qualified to write a book on the subject.
    Which is why I didn't intend to write a book on said subject.

    Keep in mind that most of us reading your post do not have the same interest in this that you do, and we don't need all of this information. Better to give us too little information and leave us wanting more and discussing than give too much and discourage posters from even reading your article.
    Point taken.

    As far as reactions, I know that I for one have neither the time, nor the motivation to sit down and read this. I wouldn't have minded debating it had I been given a much smaller portion of text, but the amount posted put me off before I even knew what the subject was. If I wanted to read a book, I'd read a book. AI is about discussion, and your excessively long post discourages people from even reading, much less responding.
    Very well then.

  14. #14
    ))) joke, relax ;) coqauvin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    the shwiggity
    Posts
    9,397
    Credits
    1,653
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    AI is still about educating other posters, especially if you are pushing forward a viewpoint that others do not know much about. It's not a lectern for you to preach at, but it is still, ideally, a place of enlightenment.

  15. #15
    Canned Kal El's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Wonderland
    Posts
    2,936
    Credits
    387
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    MrDie, the more I think back over history, the more a fucking idiot you really prove yourself to me.

    For starters "Soviet Social Imperialism" is an oxymoron phrase usage. The more I think about, the more I realize that there have been nothing but Imperial entities in history with "social" intentions.

    Rome, Holy Roman Empire, Feudal Europe, The colonial empires of France and Spain in the age of discovery and the Victorian era, Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, not to mention the Soviet Union. Just give it up already. I could write a novel on all sorts of comparisons that prove my point, but I am not. Just give it up already, you are not proving anything by trying to push your agenda on people who frankly don't give a damn.
    Quote Originally Posted by KT_ View Post
    Yes.

    Yesterday I was playing the Mirror's Edge demo while a dude was eating me out. Mirror's Edge is fucking awesome. I'm excited.
    Quote Originally Posted by victrola View Post
    he may be a faggot but in this case he is correct

  16. #16
    I killed Tupac Shinysides's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    2,139
    Credits
    20
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by coqauvin View Post
    AI is still about educating other posters, especially if you are pushing forward a viewpoint that others do not know much about. It's not a lectern for you to preach at, but it is still, ideally, a place of enlightenment.
    Yeah, my comment saying that AI isn't about education was hastily made.

  17. #17
    UH OH CHINA IN TROUBLE Barack Dalai Lama's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    258
    Credits
    20
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal El View Post
    For starters "Soviet Social Imperialism" is an oxymoron phrase usage. The more I think about, the more I realize that there have been nothing but Imperial entities in history with "social" intentions.
    Except socialism is inherently against imperialism whereas the Soviets claimed to be 'defending' socialism or 'bringing the gains of the October Revolution' to other countries. It is indeed an oxymoron (and the "bringing gains of x" was indeed used by imperial powers in the past), which is why Hoxhaists and Maoists were against it. Congratulations on failing to read.
    Last edited by Barack Dalai Lama; 04-25-2009 at 01:39 AM.

  18. #18
    Canned Kal El's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Wonderland
    Posts
    2,936
    Credits
    387
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    I made my point very clear in my paragraph. I do not feel the need to repeat myself because you are incoherent.
    Quote Originally Posted by KT_ View Post
    Yes.

    Yesterday I was playing the Mirror's Edge demo while a dude was eating me out. Mirror's Edge is fucking awesome. I'm excited.
    Quote Originally Posted by victrola View Post
    he may be a faggot but in this case he is correct

  19. #19
    UH OH CHINA IN TROUBLE Barack Dalai Lama's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    258
    Credits
    20
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal El View Post
    I made my point very clear in my paragraph. I do not feel the need to repeat myself because you are incoherent.
    No, it's very simple: socialism is against imperialism, Lenin clearly condemned it. The Soviet Union however became an imperialist power but claimed it was doings its actions under the veneer of spreading/defending socialism, which some people took seriously. Hoxhaists and Maoists realized how full of shit the USSR was and were against these imperialist acts.

    If you can't understand that then there's no hope for you.

  20. #20
    Canned Kal El's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Wonderland
    Posts
    2,936
    Credits
    387
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barack Dalai Lama View Post
    No, it's very simple: socialism is against imperialism, Lenin clearly condemned it. The Soviet Union however became an imperialist power but claimed it was doings its actions under the veneer of spreading/defending socialism, which some people took seriously. Hoxhaists and Maoists realized how full of shit the USSR was and were against these imperialist acts.
    And you are defending China, which in itself after Mao Zedong took power, was an imperialist power per say. It's influence that it exerted over Vietnam and North Korea is timeless. It's claim to Taiwan, is imperialist in nature. Just attempting to spread communism to other countries, in itself is imperialist.

    And Albania is one of the poorest countries in Europe with no hope to ever become a larger economic player.

    You see, Socialism only works in theory, but greedy intentions, and poor execution shall forever kill any social movement.

    You're an idiot. You just don't see the larger picture because you are so lost in your world of Enver Hoxha, which I am sure you have a collection of nude photos of the fucker and get off to him every night.
    Quote Originally Posted by KT_ View Post
    Yes.

    Yesterday I was playing the Mirror's Edge demo while a dude was eating me out. Mirror's Edge is fucking awesome. I'm excited.
    Quote Originally Posted by victrola View Post
    he may be a faggot but in this case he is correct

  21. #21
    UH OH CHINA IN TROUBLE Barack Dalai Lama's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    258
    Credits
    20
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal El View Post
    And you are defending China, which in itself after Mao Zedong took power, was an imperialist power per say. It's influence that it exerted over Vietnam and North Korea is timeless. It's claim to Taiwan, is imperialist in nature. Just attempting to spread communism to other countries, in itself is imperialist.
    This is why Hoxha condemned Mao, fyi. He believed that socialism would come into countries gradually at its own pace and that any attempt to "export" the revolution is imperialist and alienates the people of said nation. Just the listed content of this book shows your ignorance of Hoxhaism's development from Maoism.

    While China's claims to Taiwan are probably imperialist (I would not argue, though you did not mention, that their movement into Tibet was imperialist), the Republic of China did not exactly treat ethnic Taiwanese peoples well once in power, since it always saw itself as China and not Taiwan.

    And Albania is one of the poorest countries in Europe with no hope to ever become a larger economic player.
    Under Hoxha it developed its first industry, abolished illiteracy, fought for equality for women, fought tribalism, and secured Albanian independence against Greek and Yugoslav claims. It also helped get China into the UN (back when Hoxha and Mao were allied).

  22. #22
    Canned Kal El's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Wonderland
    Posts
    2,936
    Credits
    387
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barack Dalai Lama View Post
    This is why Hoxha condemned Mao, fyi. He believed that socialism would come into countries gradually at its own pace and that any attempt to "export" the revolution is imperialist and alienates the people of said nation. Just the listed content of this book shows your ignorance of Hoxhaism's development from Maoism.
    What makes you think I give a damn about the difference between the two countries? Just look at all the countries in the world that are still Communist. 4 of them are complete failures, and only China is any sort of exception, mostly due to the fact the country adopted some free enterprise into it's country, that and the fact the USA made it easy for companies based in the USA to outsource jobs. Vietnam, North Korea, Albania, and Cuba are all complete failures.

    While China's claims to Taiwan are probably imperialist (I would not argue, though you did not mention, that their movement into Tibet was imperialist), the Republic of China did not exactly treat ethnic Taiwanese peoples well once in power, since it always saw itself as China and not Taiwan.
    I did not mention Tibet for the shear fact that Tibet has been under Chinese rule for hundreds of years, so there is nothing "imperialist" about it when they have had control of that territory for a great deal of time.

    Under Hoxha it developed its first industry, abolished illiteracy, fought for equality for women, fought tribalism, and secured Albanian independence against Greek and Yugoslav claims. It also helped get China into the UN (back when Hoxha and Mao were allied).

    And yet it's still one of the poorest countries in Europe. Yes, he did a lot of good, from taking the country from one element of failure to another.
    Quote Originally Posted by KT_ View Post
    Yes.

    Yesterday I was playing the Mirror's Edge demo while a dude was eating me out. Mirror's Edge is fucking awesome. I'm excited.
    Quote Originally Posted by victrola View Post
    he may be a faggot but in this case he is correct

  23. #23
    Senior Member Syme's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    769
    Credits
    0
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    I'd disagree that the PRC's claim to Taiwan is "imperialist". Taiwan has historically been a part of the Chinese nation and the reason that Taiwan and mainland China are separate countries today is that each one ended up under the control of rival parties during the Chinese civil war. Neither the PRC's claim to Taiwan nor the ROC's claim to the mainland is imperialist in nature; both claims stem from the fact that the historical Chinese nation (which includes both the mainland and Formosa) is still, to this day, divided under two governments as a result of an unresolved civil war. Each government's claim represents a desire to conclude the Chinese civil war in their favor, rather than any sort of imperialism.

    Sorry, kind of a tangent, but I felt it had to be said.

  24. #24
    Canned Kal El's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Wonderland
    Posts
    2,936
    Credits
    387
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Syme View Post
    I'd disagree that the PRC's claim to Taiwan is "imperialist". Taiwan has historically been a part of the Chinese nation and the reason that Taiwan and mainland China are separate countries today is that each one ended up under the control of rival parties during the Chinese civil war. Neither the PRC's claim to Taiwan nor the ROC's claim to the mainland is imperialist in nature; both claims stem from the fact that the historical Chinese nation (which includes both the mainland and Formosa) is still, to this day, divided under two governments as a result of an unresolved civil war. Each government's claim represents a desire to conclude the Chinese civil war in their favor, rather than any sort of imperialism.

    Sorry, kind of a tangent, but I felt it had to be said.
    You are correct, I just felt like throwing around the word "imperialist" since MrDie gets off to that.

    The situation between Taiwan and China is no different than North and South Korea, only that the ocean separates China from Taiwan, and North and South Korea have a demarcation line that separates the two.
    Quote Originally Posted by KT_ View Post
    Yes.

    Yesterday I was playing the Mirror's Edge demo while a dude was eating me out. Mirror's Edge is fucking awesome. I'm excited.
    Quote Originally Posted by victrola View Post
    he may be a faggot but in this case he is correct

  25. #25
    UH OH CHINA IN TROUBLE Barack Dalai Lama's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    258
    Credits
    20
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal El View Post
    What makes you think I give a damn about the difference between the two countries?
    It makes you look like less of an idiot considering that you had no idea what social-imperialism meant.

    Just look at all the countries in the world that are still Communist.
    All zero of them, because none of them have claimed communism because that would be contradictory. Not even Hoxha said that socialism was fully constructed in Albania at the time of his death, and that Brezhnev was a revisionist for saying that socialism in the USSR had existed. (Especially since Brezhnev, like Khrushchev, was continuing capitalist reforms, negating the role of the proletariat in society, etc.)

    4 of them are complete failures, and only China is any sort of exception, mostly due to the fact the country adopted some free enterprise into it's country, that and the fact the USA made it easy for companies based in the USA to outsource jobs. Vietnam, North Korea, Albania, and Cuba are all complete failures.
    Vietnam just followed whatever the USSR did, and now follows whatever China does. The fact that the USSR, etc. experienced more economic problems parallel to the amount of capitalist reforms they made (yes, believe it or not the USSR achieved state capitalism by the 1970's). Vietnam is a joke, and due to capitalist reforms has allowed itself to become dependent on both the Chinese and Americans.

    The DPRK, on the other hand, strives for self-sufficiency. It has successfully merged socialism with the Korean culture (which Hoxha could not achieve all that much in Albania with Albanian culture), maintains links with Communist movements worldwide (Pyongyang Declaration much?), and has refused capitalist reforms outside of a minor flirtation in the early 2000's which unceremoniously ended within like two years. Besides agricultural problems due to inhospitable terrain in the 1990's and subsequent problems in the northern, rural areas, it holds on better than most countries in the region.

    As for Cuba, it's doing pretty well for itself although most of its economy is capitalist. It still has much respect in Latin America and though I am critical of Castro for intervention on behalf of the Soviets in Angola and Ethiopia in the 70's, at least he didn't do an about-face after the USSR fell in 1991.

    And yet it's still one of the poorest countries in Europe. Yes, he did a lot of good, from taking the country from one element of failure to another.
    Let's compare:

    Under Hoxha:
    a) Albania led the world anti-revisionist movement with (then not seen as revisionist) China, and did much to help Maoism spread in Europe and West Africa, and also was one of the few pro-Chinese states in the UN at the time;
    b) Albania was relatively modernized, going from tribalism to modern health care, education, total electrification, industry, government (as opposed to the clan-based almost at times pseudo-state of the past), independence (Hoxha resisted Greek claims on southern Albania, for example, and incorporation into Yugoslavia in the 40's), women's rights, a far higher standard of living, etc. For a state that achieved most of this in under 25 years, that's pretty goddamn amazing. It went from the 15th century to the 20th. Oh, and it also resisted Soviet social-imperialism while remaining a member of the WP. (Until withdrawing in 1968)

    Now, in the period of 1990-today:
    a) there was a massive surge in corruption, which accumulated until 1997 when a civil war (civil war) began over a government-sponsored ponzi scheme;
    b) a revival of tribal laws including the (banned under Hoxha) Gjakmarrja which fucked over entire families, rise in organized crime, deteriorating health and educational systems, etc. US aid came in to save the day for Albania after its transition totally wrecked the economy.

    Pretty sure Hoxha wins here, unless a life expectancy of 38, 90%+ illiteracy, no electricity, clan laws, no independent foreign policy, not even a unified language, and total superstition sound totally awesome to you. In this case I'd tell you to look into King Zog's rule, because that was the condition of Albania in the 30's.

    From AP:
    Tirana, Albania - It's 10 o'clock in the morning and Shkelten Daljani, a rambunctious boy of 14 in a tattered "Route 66" T-shirt, should be in school. But if he wants to eat, he has to help his father collect scrap metal to sell. The previous day, he says, there was no metal and no food.

    "If we have food, we eat," Shkelten says with a shrug. "If we don't, we don't."

    Shkelten and his family live on the outskirts of Albania's capital, Tirana, in the neighborhood of Breju Lumi, which means riverside, though the only nearby water is a dry streambed cluttered with trash. The houses are a collection of concrete blocks and tin shacks without electricity, running water, or sanitation. The streets are little more than dirt lanes.

    Shkelten's situation – inadequate housing and sanitation, poor medical care, and occasional hunger – is little different from that of millions of children throughout Africa, Asia, and Latin America. But his home is in the heart of Europe.

    Millions of children in the formerly communist nations of Eastern Europe have been left behind as their countries made the transition from centralized economies to free-market capitalism. While in absolute numbers the number of poor children has fallen in recent years, advocates and researchers say that a new class of excluded children is emerging who suffer many of the same problems as children in the poorest countries of Africa – but receive far less attention.

    "We used to say that everybody was equally poor," says Arlinda Ymeraj, a social-policy officer with the UN Children's Fund in Albania. "Now, if you compare, there are big disparities. A few people have gotten very rich, but more have stayed poor or gotten poorer."

    The situation of Albania's children is among Europe's worst. Once one of the most isolated nations, the country remains one of the continent's poorest countries.

    Despite recent economic growth, a third of Albania's children live on less than $2 a day. And according to the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF), a staggering 35 percent of children in rural areas are malnourished; in urban areas, 17 percent are. In terms of child malnutrition – measured by the percentage of children under age 5 who are underweight – the World Bank puts Albania just above Republic of Congo and Zimbabwe.

    Leonardo Menchini, a researcher for UNICEF's Innocenti Research Center in Florence, Italy, says no one is certain why so many children in Albania are malnourished and that more research needs to be done since the statistics are based only on a handful of studies. Still, he says, "The data for Albania are quite shocking."

    Ms. Ymeraj says that it is difficult to compare the situation of children today with that during communist times, but that life has deteriorated for the poorest in a number of concrete ways.

    The state no longer guarantees jobs, houses, or healthcare, as it did before. In rural areas, industry and state-farm collectives have collapsed, leaving people to fend for themselves, and many government services are no longer available. In rural areas, for example, 85 percent of secondary schools have shut their doors.

    Researchers say that poverty is becoming increasingly entrenched, particularly in rural areas, among Albania's minority Roma population and in families with children. Indeed, across the region, countries with the lowest birthrates also have the lowest poverty levels.

    "What has emerged is the concentration of disadvantage. Families with children seem more disadvantaged than before, relatively speaking," says Menchini, emphasizing that the state must do more to protect children. "It's important for these counties to invest in social services. They have to break the intergenerational transmission of poverty."

    Jalldyz Ymeri, a young grandmother who lives near the Daljani family, says in communist days she would not have nearly lost her 3-year-old grandson Orgito – a spiky-haired boy with angelic eyes – whom races around the family's dirt yard as she watches. A few months earlier, the boy fell seriously ill, and Ymeri had to bribe a doctor to see him.

    "The medicines to cure him are very expensive," she says. "Sometimes we have to choose between food or medicine. Nobody will treat us if we don't pay."

    "For us it was much better in communist times," insists Ymeri's husband, Safet. "We were obliged to go to school. The government gave us housing. We like democracy, but this is not real democracy."
    I did not mention Tibet for the shear fact that Tibet has been under Chinese rule for hundreds of years, so there is nothing "imperialist" about it when they have had control of that territory for a great deal of time.
    So wait, Tibet invasion isn't imperialist (not arguing that it was) yet China's maneuvering over Taiwan is? The RoC itself was seen as imperialist by many ethnic Taiwanese, Tibet was de facto independent for the majority of its history under de jure Chinese rule.
    Last edited by Barack Dalai Lama; 04-30-2009 at 09:51 AM.

  26. #26
    Canned Kal El's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Wonderland
    Posts
    2,936
    Credits
    387
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barack Dalai Lama View Post
    Let's compare:

    Under Hoxha:
    a) Albania led the world anti-revisionist movement with (then not seen as revisionist) China, and did much to help Maoism spread in Europe and West Africa, and also was one of the few pro-Chinese states in the UN at the time;
    b) Albania was relatively modernized, going from tribalism to modern health care, education, total electrification, industry, government (as opposed to the clan-based almost at times pseudo-state of the past), independence (Hoxha resisted Greek claims on southern Albania, for example, and incorporation into Yugoslavia in the 40's), women's rights, a far higher standard of living, etc. For a state that achieved most of this in under 25 years, that's pretty goddamn amazing. It went from the 15th century to the 20th. Oh, and it also resisted Soviet social-imperialism while remaining a member of the WP. (Until withdrawing in 1968)

    Now, in the period of 1990-today:
    a) there was a massive surge in corruption, which accumulated until 1997 when a civil war (civil war) began over a government-sponsored ponzi scheme;
    b) a revival of tribal laws including the (banned under Hoxha) Gjakmarrja which fucked over entire families, rise in organized crime, deteriorating health and educational systems, etc. US aid came in to save the day for Albania after its transition totally wrecked the economy.

    Pretty sure Hoxha wins here, unless a life expectancy of 38, 90%+ illiteracy, no electricity, clan laws, no independent foreign policy, not even a unified language, and total superstition sound totally awesome to you. In this case I'd tell you to look into King Zog's rule, because that was the condition of Albania in the 30's.
    Either way buddy, it has been, and still is, one of the poorest countries in Europe. I don't really care what Hoxha did, what King Zog did, or what the country is up too now. They are still one of the poorest countries in Europe.


    So wait, Tibet invasion isn't imperialist (not arguing that it was) yet China's maneuvering over Taiwan is? The RoC itself was seen as imperialist by many ethnic Taiwanese, Tibet was de facto independent for the majority of its history under de jure Chinese rule.
    Notice where I said "I just threw around Imperialist since MrDie gets off to that."

    You are obviously the one who can't read.
    Quote Originally Posted by KT_ View Post
    Yes.

    Yesterday I was playing the Mirror's Edge demo while a dude was eating me out. Mirror's Edge is fucking awesome. I'm excited.
    Quote Originally Posted by victrola View Post
    he may be a faggot but in this case he is correct

  27. #27
    λεγιων ονομα μοι sycld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    10,570
    Credits
    2,502
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barack Dalai Lama View Post
    I am of the opinion that Soviet social-imperialism began early, though it did not take on such an aggressive/superpower form until the 1950's when Stalin died and Khrushchev (and successors) drifted away from socialism. Early social-imperialism was also (in my opinion) fairly genuine in its intention (though still imperialist) to maintain socialism whereas after the 40's it was simply a way of gaining profit.
    wait a second... weren't you defending stalin before?

    also, i'm so happy you managed to find AI. i hope you'll restrict your communist rantings to this forum.


    PANDAS
    If you don't like them, then get the fuck out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Think View Post
    Atheists are quite right

  28. #28
    UH OH CHINA IN TROUBLE Barack Dalai Lama's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    258
    Credits
    20
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    wait a second... weren't you defending stalin before?
    Yes, note how I said fairly genuine in its intention (as in, focused on preserving and spreading socialism, but in the end laid the seeds for an imperialist outlook when the USSR went revisionist).

    Either way buddy, it has been, and still is, one of the poorest countries in Europe. I don't really care what Hoxha did, what King Zog did, or what the country is up too now. They are still one of the poorest countries in Europe.
    Apparently a perquisite for socialism to be successful requires magic. Modernization, sovereignty and political influence (when the country had none of them before) seemingly do not matter. Using this logic, China's position from an impoverished warlord-ridden state in the 1930's to what it is today doesn't matter because China was certainly in a better position than Albania was in the 30's.

    Notice where I said "I just threw around Imperialist since MrDie gets off to that."
    So basically this:
    And you are defending China, which in itself after Mao Zedong took power, was an imperialist power per say. It's influence that it exerted over Vietnam and North Korea is timeless. It's claim to Taiwan, is imperialist in nature. Just attempting to spread communism to other countries, in itself is imperialist.
    Was a waste of time.
    Last edited by Barack Dalai Lama; 05-01-2009 at 05:49 AM.

  29. #29
    λεγιων ονομα μοι sycld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    10,570
    Credits
    2,502
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barack Dalai Lama View Post
    Yes, note how I said fairly genuine in its intention (as in, focused on preserving and spreading socialism, but in the end laid the seeds for an imperialist outlook when the USSR went revisionist).
    how?

    by heading such a harsh and brutal regime that people started to become severely discontent with the government?

    also, though it's off topic, what do you think about yevgeny yevtushenko? i had the pleasure of performing in front of him a choral setting of his texts that shostakovich had composed in october of 2007.


    PANDAS
    If you don't like them, then get the fuck out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Think View Post
    Atheists are quite right

  30. #30
    UH OH CHINA IN TROUBLE Barack Dalai Lama's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    258
    Credits
    20
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sycld View Post
    how?

    by heading such a harsh and brutal regime that people started to become severely discontent with the government?
    In Mongolia? In Tuva? This thread is about Soviet Social-Imperialism and when it came to internal politics in the SSRs Stalin was actually in ways better than Lenin. He created institutions for Muslims (Spiritual Administration of the Muslims of Central Asia and Kazakhstan), condemned even SSR chauvinist attitudes towards ASSRs (e.g. Georgian SSR vs. Abkhazian ASSR), under him the Ukrainian language was strongly promoted (and probably saved the language from being irrelevant, as Russians in the Ukraine were forced to learn Ukrainian), and basically although the seeds for social-imperialism in the capitalist sense (trying to rule the world basically in a search for profit) were unintentionally sown, the results did not appear until the 50's, 60's, 70's, etc. under revisionists such as Khrushchev, Brezhnev, etc.

    what do you think about yevgeny yevtushenko? i had the pleasure of performing in front of him a choral setting of his texts that shostakovich had composed in october of 2007.
    He seemed like the type of guy Khrushchev needed to paint himself as a 'legitimate' Communist vis-à-vis Molotov, etc. during the 'thaw.' Then he supported Gorbachev later on. It's safe to say he isn't a Communist. Other than that I have no opinion.

  31. #31
    λεγιων ονομα μοι sycld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    10,570
    Credits
    2,502
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barack Dalai Lama View Post
    In Mongolia? In Tuva? This thread is about Soviet Social-Imperialism and when it came to internal politics in the SSRs Stalin was actually in ways better than Lenin. He created institutions for Muslims (Spiritual Administration of the Muslims of Central Asia and Kazakhstan), condemned even SSR chauvinist attitudes towards ASSRs (e.g. Georgian SSR vs. Abkhazian ASSR), under him the Ukrainian language was strongly promoted (and probably saved the language from being irrelevant, as Russians in the Ukraine were forced to learn Ukrainian), and basically although the seeds for social-imperialism in the capitalist sense (trying to rule the world basically in a search for profit) were unintentionally sown, the results did not appear until the 50's, 60's, 70's, etc. under revisionists such as Khrushchev, Brezhnev, etc.
    That's interesting, as it paints a picture in sharp contrast the characterisations of Social Imperialism in Mongolia and Tuva. That sounds a lot more like the "soft power" the Britih used in their colonies, where pandering to the wants and needs of the inhabitants of their colonies made them content enough to be ruled by an outside power.

    I find the official sanctioning of Islam in Central Asia a particularly surprising capitulation.

    He seemed like the type of guy Khrushchev needed to paint himself as a 'legitimate' Communist vis-à-vis Molotov, etc. during the 'thaw.' Then he supported Gorbachev later on. It's safe to say he isn't a Communist. Other than that I have no opinion.
    I know this thread about Social Imperialism, but I will never ceased to be amazed at how you seem to be incapable of thinking of things in any other terms other than "revolutionary" or "reactionary." What a tiny world you must live in.


    PANDAS
    If you don't like them, then get the fuck out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Think View Post
    Atheists are quite right

  32. #32
    UH OH CHINA IN TROUBLE Barack Dalai Lama's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    258
    Credits
    20
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sycld View Post
    I know this thread about Social Imperialism, but I will never ceased to be amazed at how you seem to be incapable of thinking of things in any other terms other than "revolutionary" or "reactionary." What a tiny world you must live in.
    Not really, and it's actually more like three: revolutionary, progressive and reactionary. For example, I'd say the NBPP would be progressive, or Dennis Kucinich would be progressive, but they would not be revolutionary. I'd say the Constitution Party or David Duke would be reactionary. For example, I'd say the Nationalist Movement Party in Turkey is somewhat progressive even though it's considered neo-fascist since they support Turanism (which I believe is impossible under capitalism considering national contradictions between the various bourgeoisie's of each state, so socialists could easily emerge from failed promises), but that does not make them revolutionary and indeed it would make them reactionary if revolutionaries were to seize control of the state, since the NMP would inevitably fight against said movement due the NMP having a petty-bourgeois base.

    The goal is to figure out what movements are progressive (which means are not anti-communists or could at least help communism spread somehow) and which are reactionary (those which threaten the growth of communism). For example, neither Obama nor McCain are progressive, they would not have much value to communists except for those that are bargaining on Obama's failure as a way to help expand the support for socialism.

    Of course things like this could always backfire. For example, in the early 30's the Soviets concluded that since social-democracy and fascism both attracted the petty-bourgeoisie and basically saved capitalism by welfare and 'reforms', then fascism was just the militant, 'revolutionary' variant of social-democracy. This naturally led the Communists to view the Nazis as petty-bourgeois socialists who were against the fascist state ergo they were progressive, so there was a brief Communist-Nazi alliance for a bit that obviously backfired.

    So for example you can dig up fliers made in East Germany honoring Thomas Müntzer (16th century anti-Luther Protestant leader of rebelling peasants) to get Christians to support the SED or how Hoxha had left Bektashi Muslims relatively alone since like GDR Christians they served a progressive purpose in rallying people around socialism. There was also the Albanian Democratic Front (which was a mass organization that occasionally elected non-party tribal leaders), the East German National Front (which united various autonomous political parties towards SED goals), etc. Remember, even the DPRK has three political parties in a united front. In the end, Stalin allowing Muslims some autonomy doesn't sound too strange at all.

    That's interesting, as it paints a picture in sharp contrast the characterisations of Social Imperialism in Mongolia and Tuva. That sounds a lot more like the "soft power" the Britih used in their colonies, where pandering to the wants and needs of the inhabitants of their colonies made them content enough to be ruled by an outside power.
    You should read Tribal Nation: The Making of Soviet Turkmenistan and Affirmative Action Empire. Up until the 1940's, the SSRs were genuinely self-governing to an extent, especially in Central Asia. For example, during the collectivization campaigns, local party leaders in the Turkmen SSR demanded that peasants collectivize or else they would lose their voting rights and other rights, etc.

    Stalin genuinely wanted collectivization to be a mass movement, which is why he condemned forced collectivization at times and in Pravda wrote an article called Dizzy with Success on the issue. (http://marxists.org/reference/archiv...1930/03/02.htm) Forced collectivization in the Turkmen SSR was pretty much a total failure (society wasn't even feudal, it was tribal) and it got to the point where the Soviets just gave up and basically let things stay as they were. Still, it wasn't until the 1960's that equal development of SSRs (well, as much as possible of course) was abandoned and by the 1970's the Central Asian SSRs basically just became colonies of the Russian SFSR.

  33. #33
    Senior Member D.Erync's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    7
    Credits
    0
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default Soviet Social Imperialism An Introduction

    Btw, the new catch phrase is "Co-Op Healthcare." Ever belong to a homeowners association or have to go before a Co-Op Board for anything? And hows that 401k concept working out for you?

    Just saying.

  34. #34
    ))) joke, relax ;) coqauvin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    the shwiggity
    Posts
    9,397
    Credits
    1,653
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by D.Erync View Post
    Btw, the new catch phrase is "Co-Op Healthcare." Ever belong to a homeowners association or have to go before a Co-Op Board for anything? And hows that 401k concept working out for you?

    Just saying.
    what

    are you trying to say that universal health care is negatively linked to soviet-social imperialism? and that going to a homeowner's association meeting to plead a case, or speak to a co-op board is equally evilly communist?

    would you care to explain this batshit insanity?

  35. #35
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    472
    Credits
    367
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Just a heads-up, the most updated version of this (and the only one I'd actually be updating) is at: http://www.revleft.com/vb/soviet-soc...563/index.html

  36. #36
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    472
    Credits
    367
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Since Atmosfear enjoys being a cheerleader for anarchism and deleted* my other thread, I can safely say that this one still stands.

    * Being trashed still qualifies as deleted.
    Last edited by Husein; 04-03-2010 at 07:40 AM.

  37. #37
    ))) joke, relax ;) coqauvin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    the shwiggity
    Posts
    9,397
    Credits
    1,653
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    FYI, I deleted your thread. There was nothing resembling anything other than a flames thread coming out of it.

    I left this thread alone because there was actually some conversation about the topic. If you write giant walls of text that no one cares to read or chat about, I'm going to trash them.

    mrdie let me give you a tip: the first rule of good writing is brevity. not masturbating to yourself over your word/quotation choice.

  38. #38
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    472
    Credits
    367
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    What sort of discussion came out of this besides Kal El going all "HA HA ALBANIA ALSO MY APOLOGISM FOR SOVIET SOCIAL-IMPERIALISM"?

  39. #39
    ))) joke, relax ;) coqauvin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    the shwiggity
    Posts
    9,397
    Credits
    1,653
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    sycld had a couple comments?

    this is still 200% better than your last thread, only because it got replies on topic. now stop whining

  40. #40
    Senior Member Jim Jones's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    6
    Credits
    0
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Man two years ago I had some wrong views.

    The Bolshevik activities in Turkestan were not social-imperialist, nor were Soviet actions in Mongolia, Tuva, the Baltics, Poland, Eastern Europe ('cept after the 1960's with Khrushchev's so-called "socialist division of labor") or Hungary (although Khrushchev backed Nagy to begin with.)

    Otherwise yeah my post is still good. In January 2010 I wrote this, which is also pretty good: http://www.revleft.com/vb/anti-imper....html?t=128292

Similar Threads

  1. Be a secret spy for the soviet union
    By zeroslave in forum Casual Intercourse
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 03-17-2009, 07:59 PM
  2. Introduction Thread?
    By Beef in forum Suggestions
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 11-06-2008, 07:59 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •