Thread: Atheists

How does religion "grow up?" As far as I can tell, religions are pretty intrinsically tied to their holy books, which are considered the infallible word of god. It just doesn't seem like there's much wiggle room there. I'm inclined to agree with KT that we as a species need to outgrow religion. Everything that religion provides: community, oneness, a sense of being, a sense of understanding of one's place in the universe, and especially morality, all of that can be provided elsewhere. Maybe we should do a better job of teaching science to kids in an interesting way so that they truly understand where we come from in a cosmic sense and where here is on a more galactic and universal scale. Then we wouldn't grow up with so much mystery about our origins and our place in the world and the cosmos. There will always be mystery, because scientific knowledge will always be imperfect, but in my honest opinion it is much healthier to accept an imperfect knowledge of what everything is than to claim complete knowledge in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Also, it is a huge misconception that religion holds a monopoly on morality. Some of the best people I know are atheists, some of the worst are deeply religious. I see little correlation. Morality is being taught what's right and what's wrong. If people choose to be horrible to each other with the full knowledge that every life has equal value and that everybody deserves to be treated with respect because we're all in this together...then...I guess that's what jails are for. People are as good as their parents and society raise them to be, with or without religion.

Not that religion is always a bad influence. MLK was deeply religious, as was Ghandhi, the Buddha, many people over the years. But true morality transcends religion. It is the recognition and willingness to do what's right even when it conflicts with accepted doctrine and societal norms. That, in my opinion is true morality.

Maybe I'm not cynical enough about people in general. Maybe the average person does need to be told that if they're bad they'll go to hell, or else they'll be bad. But I think that's expecting very little out of people, and taking the very old testament view that free will will always lead people astray. It is my humble opinion that the knowledge of who we are and why we're here will actually lead people to make better decisions than the "knowledge" that we are all God's children, that we were created in his image, and as long as we act in the name of God we can do no wrong on this earth. The level of evil and unenlightenment that such a philosophy has caused in this country and this earth is profound. It is why we destroy the environment, why we refuse to admit that climate change is possible, why commit war in the name of Christianity.

To sum up, I think religion holds us back. It's too deeply devoted to an outdated book that too many believe is the word of God. As long as religion is based on the bible, it will only ever hold us back. If we want to take the valuable things from the bible and leave the rest, that's fine. But ultimately, we should be teaching the morals that we think are right, regardless of where they come from. Many will come from the bible, many won't. But as long as the bible as a whole is cited, as long as there still exist passages like the ones I quoted earlier, religion will only hold us back.

sailor jack, that's an incredible guess, and i think a very naive and inaccurate one.

in a way, the world needs "radical atheism" as much as it needed "radical feminism"; neither is in itself on the money, but both are much-needed kicks in the pants for the deeply religious/patriarchal world. (i won't argue that point too stringently, because it's also a bit of a guess, but quite a convincing one, i find.)

you say that "if critics (Atheists in particular) would stop using the religious extremes as a straw man for religion as a whole, the extremists would have lost their voice and credibility a long time ago"; but -- that's simply nonsense. why would they have lost their voice? they have had the overwhelming voice the world over for millennia. what we today call religious extremism was essentially the norm for a very, very long time -- basically until it was more convenient to go after things like industry and science, at which point it started to lose its grip. are you saying that, if things had been allowed to run their course, without the intervention of pesky dawkins and hitchens (etc), the trend would have continued more rapidly? that's a pretty nonsensical thing to suppose.

it's true that strawman* arguments by atheists (or feminists) does the cause little good, but they don't drastically set it back, either. religion is deeply embedded in our society's status quo. it will continue to be until is shaken out. ...which will never -- or at least not for a very, very long time, and organically, not because some atheists want it to happen -- actually happen in a substantive enough way to make a difference. which brings me to...

Originally Posted by yrogerg123

How does religion "grow up?" As far as I can tell, religions are pretty intrinsically tied to their holy books, which are considered the infallible word of god.

how much do you think the average christian on your street resembles a christian from a thousand years ago? how about a hundred? what beliefs do you think they have in common? sadly, far too many people still believe evolution is bogus, but millions the world over DO believe it. and millions comfortably believe in both the christian god AND the validity of evolution. (the question of whether these are really compatible is the subject of another debate.) how about reform or progressive judaism? ever heard of that? or the muslim family that owns a kebab shop whose meat is NOT blessed ritually by an imam?

there are lots of intelligent, thoughtful religious people, and to say that a religion can't mature is to deny that fact. a few very wicked people still believe in religions from the dark ages, but that doesn't apply to all religion. basically, the way religion can mature is for people to, rather than living their lives in servitude to it, use it to enhance their or others' lives. as i said earlier: if religion is to mature with modern society, and the wisdom which humanity requires to survive the next millennium, it must be in servitude to humankind, and not the other way around.