Need a Knife

Nothing fancy or expensive, for self defense. I live in NJ, which is, quite surprisingly, not that bad at all for knives, since there's no legislation banning the carry of "normal" knives (not autos, among a few others) by adults.
What I'm looking at is Cold Steel's Safe Maker, but I'd really prefer a folder. What I've currently got is a 2" Winchester spring-assisted folder; I like it a lot and can open it quite quickly. The Cold Steel Ti-Lite seems intriguing, but the lack of a safety switch or ambi studs irks me.
All suggestions are welcome, and I'm willing to spend maybe $60 bucks on this. I'm currently checking to see if my school for next year bans the possession or carry of knives, but I don't believe so. If you feel like giving me a hand, google NJ knife laws and check out this link:
http://www.stevens.edu/student_life/...ok%2008-09.pdf
Since NJ law doesn't define most knives (or pepperspray/mace, for that matter) as weapons, I should be good, but I'm going to email the Dean just in case.
Thanks in advance!

I have a buck 119 Special, 50 bucks at k-mart, super sharp (after I sharpened it) and would scare the piss out of anybody. Crocodile Dundee would be proud of this knife.

Also, Kabar makes my favorite knife.

Kershaw has some cool folding knives, as well as gerber. All pretty cheap knives (except kabar) and all are good knives for what you want.

get ur free knife at lws

I own more than a few knives, and while Cold Steel does make some great ones, my daily carry knife right now is the CRKT M16-14ZSF. It's got a 4" tanto blade, smooth and quick action, and an auto-LAWKS safety designed to make the liner lock as strong as a fixed blade. I've owned and used it for menial daily tasks like cutting straws for the kids as well as medium-duty field work for over three years now. Price was $27 without tax on post, despite the $70 MSRP. http://www.crkt.com/carsdsrt.html If you can find one, or another M16 series, in your budget I'd highly recommend getting it.

The S&W SWAT is nowhere near as rugged, but I've owned one for twelve or so years now and it lasted through Iraq. Cold Steel's Voyager line is a bit better built, but I only own the two largest ones (XL and X2). Kershaw makes some decent knives, as does Spyderco, and even Benchmade makes some less expensive folders nowadays.

Kabars are nice, here is the one we have at the house as part of our home security system.

death to crackheads

http://bayimg.com/image/paahpaacl.jpg
http://bayimg.com/aaAIPAACl

Another knife my roomate has is something very similar to this

sog

http://www.sog-knives.net/images/SOG...-1-600x600.jpg

http://www.sog-knives.net/sog-knife.php?prodnum=TF-1

If that's anything like the one my roomate has(and they look identical to me), that is a great knife. I love his it's solid as hell once it's open, comfortable in the hand, nice blade etc.

Im going to say SOG too. They make really good stuff.

I'll check out the M16 series, and the Trident Tini Black Tanto. They're reasonably priced on Amazon.

Kershaw, CRKT, and Spyderco are probably your best bets if you don't want to get something expensive. Make your pick based on the steel, blade profile, size, and action you want; anything from those manufacturers will be a pretty good knife. I recommend against Cold Steel on the basis of poor quality-for-price in comparison to the three manufacturers above. The decent Cold Steel knives usually tend to be a bit above $60.

I have two S&W SWATs and regret buying them both, for what its worth. I paid $50 each for them back before I knew much about knives. They are too heavy in comparison to some nicer knives, the action is mediocre, and the steel is bottom-grade (420J, I think). But I nevertheless carry and use them a lot, for reasons I don't quite understand myself. I wouldn't recommend them, though. I would probably regret the purchase less if I had paid $20 each for them (which is about what they're worth, IMO) rather than $50 each.

As for SOGs, I personally think they tend to be a little tacky/gimmicky, but they are supposedly good knives. Since you said you are looking for a folder, there is probably not much point looking at Kabars.

I have a nice little ka bar folder. But its more of a show piece than a use knife. It has a mirror finish and some nice wood handles.

Ive also been looking for a new knife. I had a cheap assisted open for a while, but the spring in it broke. But I really like the assisted open. Anyone know who makes good assisted open knifes for under say $80?

Actually Im liking the M16 series knifes. But I see on their website it says they are not made for tip up pocket carry. Why would that be a problem?

For $45 I might get this one.
Amazon.com: Columbia River Knife and Tool's M21-14SFG Special Forces Big Dog Deep-Bellied Spear Point Veff Serrated Blade Knife: Home Improvement

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Originally Posted by Anonymous D

Actually Im liking the M16 series knifes. But I see on their website it says they are not made for tip up pocket carry. Why would that be a problem?

For $45 I might get this one.
Amazon.com: Columbia River Knife and Tool's M21-14SFG Special Forces Big Dog Deep-Bellied Spear Point Veff Serrated Blade Knife: Home Improvement

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Most folders are not recommended for tip up carry, due to gravity and Murphy's Law dictating the inadvertent opening of the knife. Tip down has always worked for me. I'm a lefty but carry my folders tip down in my right pocket. The Benchmade, Voyager X2 and M16-14ZSF are particularly fast to deploy in this manner; the Benchmade because it's an auto, the Voyager because it's a BIG knife and the weight of the blade does the work with the flick of a wrist, and the CRKT because it has a "Carson Flipper" that doubles as a hilt but allows the knife to be flicked open in less than a second.

My SWAT has withstood a combat tour as well as years of use, but it is not my first recommendation (or last for that matter). Of course, I like to think it is better than the newer SWATs, but I have no evidence to back this up. For the price and the way they are built, the CRKTs are possibly the most rugged run-of-the-mill knives out there. For $27 I would not be broken-hearted if mine were lost like both of my Leatherman Waves and countless other knives and multitools. It is more sturdy than any other folder I have besides perhaps the Benchmade, and it just feels right in the hand.

Does anyone know anything about Schrade knives? I found them, and I'm liking what I'm seeing.

For that matter, is a glass breaker a good investment on a knife? Surely the point could be used to break a car window easily, right?

You could use the knife to break the glass. But a breaker would be nice if you have the option.

And fm, so I can just switch the position of the clip and have tip down carry huh? That will take some getting used to cause I always carry tip up. Never had a problem with a knife opening in my pocket except for the Schrade I had on my keychain.

AFIAK Schrade is in the same boat quality wise as Gerber. Good knifes, but there are better for the money.

I think Ill be getting this one when I get paid.

Amazon.com: Columbia River Knife and Tool 1093K Mini My Tighe Assisted Opening Folding Knife with 3-inch Black Serrated Blade: Home Improvement

Trying to use the tip of a knife to break tempered glass (which is what car windows are made of) can break the blade. If you are really concerned about being able to bust out a car window, then yeah, a knife with a glass breaker is a much better choice than using the blade. But unless you are a rescue worker it's kind of pointless.

I'm in the market for a knife right now as well, but don't know an extensive amount about what to look for. Anybody able to recommend any non-obvious features for a knife carried strictly for self-defense? (No rugged usage, etc) Practicality is key here, I'm not interested in anything flashy/unnecessary/etc~

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Originally Posted by faesce

I'm in the market for a knife right now as well, but don't know an extensive amount about what to look for. Anybody able to recommend any non-obvious features for a knife carried strictly for self-defense? (No rugged usage, etc) Practicality is key here, I'm not interested in anything flashy/unnecessary/etc~

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Seriously look at that sog I linked to, my roomate has that exact knife and it's an awesome fucking knife. I really want to get one just like it, probably the same one. It's really solid, fits comfortable in a pocket and in hand, and has a nice shape and blade.

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Originally Posted by crunker

Does anyone know anything about Schrade knives? I found them, and I'm liking what I'm seeing.

For that matter, is a glass breaker a good investment on a knife? Surely the point could be used to break a car window easily, right?

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I have a Schrade fixed blade that is a great knife. Their Old Timer-style knives seem to be popular with people who like the older style pocket knives. As for their pocket folders I have never been too impressed. The only Schrade folder I own is an old Cliphanger. The blade is thin as heck, the plastic handle is cheap and, while it works as a light duty knife, it is one of the least sturdy brand name knives I've handled. As for a glass breaker, Syme said it all. Looking at the Schrade website I saw their First Responder. Looks quite a bit like the S&W 1st Response I own, and for good reason; both are made by Taylor Brands. So, in effect, Schrade and S&W knives are probably about the same in quality and value.

If you really want an emergency knife, check this one out:
http://www.crkt.com/mak1extrik.html

I keep mine in my truck.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous D

You could use the knife to break the glass. But a breaker would be nice if you have the option.

And fm, so I can just switch the position of the clip and have tip down carry huh? That will take some getting used to cause I always carry tip up. Never had a problem with a knife opening in my pocket except for the Schrade I had on my keychain.

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The M16-14ZSF has holes for the clip to be attached on either side for tip up or tip down carry. Another good things is that they come with an extra clip and screws as well as a torx driver. The Urban Shark and M16 I own are both prone to the clips loosening up over time.

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Originally Posted by Killuminati

Seriously look at that sog I linked to, my roomate has that exact knife and it's an awesome fucking knife. I really want to get one just like it, probably the same one. It's really solid, fits comfortable in a pocket and in hand, and has a nice shape and blade.

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It seems a little overly flashy--but I'll take your recommendation seriously. I like the line cutter functionality without having to open the knife, but I'm not sure how much use I'd get out of it since I rarely fish and usually carry utility knives with me anyway with better line cutters and strippers etc~

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Originally Posted by fm2176

The M16-14ZSF has holes for the clip to be attached on either side for tip up or tip down carry. Another good things is that they come with an extra clip and screws as well as a torx driver. The Urban Shark and M16 I own are both prone to the clips loosening up over time.

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This definitely looks like a great knife to my untrained eye, however after some research I've noticed it's a particularly heavy knife in comparison to others @ 6oz+ partial due to the pommel. As I'm sure you have a lot more combat experience than me, is it wise to use such a heavy knife for strictly self-defense purposes?

IMO, if you can comfortably carry it, then do so. And bigger knifes are intimidating. So just pulling a big knife like that may end the fight.

Also I just noticed the picture of the KA BAR. lol

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Originally Posted by faesce

It seems a little overly flashy--but I'll take your recommendation seriously. I like the line cutter functionality without having to open the knife, but I'm not sure how much use I'd get out of it since I rarely fish and usually carry utility knives with me anyway with better line cutters and strippers etc~

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The biggest part of that knife is how comfortable it is, it seems to mold to your hand and feels natural. He doesn't use it for the line cutting utility, just for regular use or to carry for self defense. I mean I don't know much about knives but I have seen a lot of knives people carry(good and bad) and this is by far my favorite. Plus if you get that shit all black it looks so sick.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous D

Also I just noticed the picture of the KA BAR. lol

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Lol that shit is so fucking diesel, I could club someone with the handle and it would knock them out. When I hold that thing though it really makes me want to stab something lol, it just makes sense when you hold that knife.

Im not talking about the knife. lol

But I have an old school ka bar that has been through hell and back.

Oh I see lol. This one hasn't received much action yet, not that many uses for it around here besides home defense. Just collects dust most of the time.

If you are going to use a knife for self-defense, the most important thing to have is serious training. Don't carry a knife for self-defense unless you have spent the time and money to take a serious, in-depth combat knife course. The course should last a couple of months and won't be cheap. Don't think you can just buy a neat knife and carry around with you and you'll be ready to defend yourself with it. Unless you actually know what you are doing, pulling a knife in a self-defense situation actually makes you more likely to be hurt or killed than if you didn't have the knife at all. It's incredibly dangerous, much more dangerous than using your bare hands or just trying to run away. You are quite likely to end up getting slashed/stabbed with your own knife. If you don't have the needed training, don't carry a knife for self-defense. Also, be intimately familiar with your state's knife laws. In many places the carry of knives is actually more restricted than the carry of handguns. All told, if you really want to carry a deadly weapon for self-defense, a pistol is a better choice. It is much easier to use effectively, it is much less dangerous to you, and it is likely to be subject to fewer legal hassles.

That said, a good self-defense knife will have a blade profile suited to effective slashing, as well as a tip suited for effective stabbing. It should have grip shaping that allows for a strong, positive "saber" grip. The blade should be thick enough to have the necessary strength to stand up to the stresses of hard slashing and stabbing.

And just to repeat: Get serious training, or don't carry a knife for self-defense.

EDIT: And thinking that a big scary knife might end a confrontation just by it's appearance is probably like thinking that racking the slide on your pump-action will scare off a burglar: Silly, unrealistic, and possibly dangerous.

Well the thing is none of us can get a ccw for a while so knives will at least help for now. I agree that you should really have combat knife training before using but that's not always an option. I mean I don't carry around a knife on me normally, I don't even own one personally. However, when I go out at night to meet my gf to walk her back to my house or something, I do like to have a knife on me. Mr roommates friend was walking from Drexel to USP and on the way a couple guys grabbed them, robbed them and did some fucked up shit to his girlfriend. He was stuck helpless, he had no way of possibly defending himself or protecting his girl. If something like that happened to me I would not want to be sitting there helpless, with a knife at least there is a chance of doing something or buying time to get away. I mean yea you should have training to make sure you are safe and don't hurt yourself trying to use it but not having that training doesn't mean you just shouldn't carry a knife.

Oh and in terms of the burglar, I don't think the appearance alone would scare someone away(although it is pretty intimidating) but it's not hard to stab someone with a knife like that. You don't have to worry about the blade closing on you and it's a damn big knife, you can stab or slash someone with that knife no problem. I know the crackheads around here cant afford guns or knives that big so I think it give us a pretty good shot, especially being on defense.

Sounds like you live in Philly. You should know that it is flat-out illegal to carry a knife around in Philadelphia, no exceptions. So saying that you carry a knife around because you can't legally carry a gun doesn't make any sense; you can't legally carry the knife either. As for your friend who got robbed, he almost certainly would have made his situation worse by pulling a knife in attempt to defend himself and his girl. It probably would not have helped. The knife probably would have been taken away from him, and he probably would have been injured. Knife wounds are real nasty. You don't want one. And yes, not having the training really DOES mean that you shouldn't carry a knife for self-defense. This "training" thing is not an optional bonus that you can get by without. It is NECESSARY to effectively use a knife for self-defense. You are HIGHLY likely to be injured without that training, more likely than you are to effectively defend yourself. So it's a losing proposition.

As for stabbing/slashing a crackhead, you now seem to be talking about using a deadly weapon to attack and would, or possibly kill, a intruder who may not be armed. This is not justifiable under the law unless you can convincingly argue that this unarmed person posed an imminent threat to your life. You really need to know this stuff. Don't use that knife for home defense. Learn the law. Don't remain ignorant and just say "Oh this knife is pretty good for stabbing, I'll keep it around and use it on any crackheads who break in". You could be getting yourself into a legal shitstorm of a magnitude you wouldn't believe. Plus, without proper training, again, you DO put yourself in grave danger even by trying to use that Ka-Bar against an unarmed crackhead.

The penalties for carrying around a concealed illegal firearm is going to be a lot worse than having a pocket knife on you. I mean I don't know how you even compare that. Plus a gun is a whole shit ton more expensive than a knife. I know knife wounds are nasty, knives are no joke. Pulling out a knife on someone is serious, I would only pull one out if I thought that I needed to. When you use a knife you are making an attack very personal, much more so than a gun I would expect. I don't treat knives or guns lightly and I don't fuck around with this kind of stuff. I'm not trying to act like a tough guy, I don't ever want to be in a situation where I would want to have a knife or gun on me. If I have a knife on me and they pull out a gun, I'm not gonna be trying to use the knife to do something stupid and end up shot. If I felt like I was in danger though, or if I felt that my girl was in danger and after assessing the situation determined that I might be able to use a knife to my advantage then I'm going to use it.

As for the breaking into the home I wasn't talking about just stabbing crackheads as they tried to knock down the door, just that if something did happen(we already got robbed so hopefully it won't happen again) and the Ka Bar could be useful then it could be used in some way. When I was talking about stabbing I only meant stabbing out of necessity and not as an attack on a home intruder. I know the law(kinda) and plus I don't even think I could do that to someone who was just breaking in and not attacking me. Stabbing an unarmed intruder is some fucked up shit, even if they are a crackhead.

When I was talking about the knife being big and easy to stab with I was only talking about someone breaking in and threatening my life. If they don't come in armed with a gun I would have that Ka bar in hand and who knows where it could go from there. As long as the person didn't try and attack me and left my house(which would probably happen anyway if they found out we were home while trying to rob us) then there would be no problems. If they attacked me with a knife or similar weapon then I would stab them with the ka bar(or at least try). If they are breaking into my house and attacking me with a weapon then I think I'm in the clear to stab them without going to jail.

The idea that knife training isn't 100% absolutely necessary is not only stupid, it's fucking dangerous.

It's not even about being a "tough guy." It's about not being a retard.

I think the whole "hyuck I need a gun for self defense" argument is really ridiculous as a general rule, but it's nowhere near as retarded as "hyuck I live in Philly I need a big knife." You're going to get maimed or killed pulling that thing out like a hero in the wrong situation. If you're "defending your girl" and the bad guy takes your knife from you, you're also putting her at significantly higher risk. It's fucked up. Get trained or put the big boy toys away.

So what if something happens just stand there and take it? Let them do whatever they want, take whatever they want then what? Who knows what some guy will do, he could be fucking crazy. In that case I should just sit there and do everything he asks while I wait for the police to come(they don't get called until you call them or they happen to drive by, no one else ever does).

Why are you attacking me so much? When did I say anything even similar to oh I live in Philly i need a big knife? Anything even like that? How much do I have to stress that I wouldn't just be pulling a knife out like an idiot and trying to stab someone. Read my last post, I said I would only consider using a knife in a situation where I considered myself or my girl to be in immediate danger and I thought that there weren't really other options besides just laying there and taking it. In that case I can't see how you could have a problem with me wanting to have and use a knife.

The problem is that you are putting yourself in MORE danger by pulling that knife because, if you aren't trained to use it properly, it's easier for your opponent to take the knife away from you than it is for you to use the knife against them (for the same reason, if a knife-armed intruder breaks into your house, you are better off trying to use your bare hands against them than trying to pull your own knife and fight them with it). Yes, if someone attacks you, it is better to lie there and take it (or better yet, run away or fight them with your bare hands) than to try to pull a knife you don't know how to use, because pulling the knife makes it MORE likely for you to be killed or injured--it adds a lethal weapon to the situation, it escalates the situation, and it makes it very likely that you will be stabbed or slashed. Yeah, I suppose if a guy is literally just about to kill you anyhow, pulling a knife can't make the situation any worse. Short of that, don't do it. Just being accosted, even if there's a threat of violence, even if you think you might be in immediate danger, even if you don't know what the guy is capable of, is not a situation where you should pull a knife. It really really really will not help unless you are a trained knife-fighter.

Without proper training, a knife is NOT "better than nothing" for self defense. It's worse than nothing. It puts YOU in more danger. It's counterproductive. I know it seems logical that any weapon is better than nothing, but just because it seems logical doesn't make it necessarily true.

To be completely honest with you, Id rather get in a gun fight than a knife fight. Knife fights require so much more skill if you are going to come out unscathed. Im pretty good with a gun, but with a knife... well... IDK. I personally wouldnt carry a knife for self defense, becuase if the other person has a gun, you are basically fucked. Dont bring a knife to what could be a gun fight.

EDIT: As far as facing an unarmed suspect, I would NOT pull a knife. If they overpower you and get a hold of it then god only knows what will happen. Id rather just possibly take a beating than risk having my knife taken and get killed with it. Now if you get some training with it, then that is completely different. I do some high stress shooting drills which I know is nothing compared to the real thing, but its something.

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Originally Posted by faesce

This definitely looks like a great knife to my untrained eye, however after some research I've noticed it's a particularly heavy knife in comparison to others @ 6oz+ partial due to the pommel. As I'm sure you have a lot more combat experience than me, is it wise to use such a heavy knife for strictly self-defense purposes?

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I don't carry my knife for self-defense per se. It's just there. The M16-14ZSF has a nice sounding solid "thud" when it opens, and it is plenty big enough for daily carry. If I am otherwise unarmed in a new area, though, I look ahead for possible danger as well as expedient weapons. In a self-defense situation that I can't retreat from, an edged weapon is my last choice. In Iraq I carried a MkII Gerber, then the Voyager X2. These were more for show than use as I also carried an ASP and had my spare barrel and (as a last resort) helmet if my SAW was not practical or down.

As for the Ka-Bar, I think I see what is so fascinating. :) The knife itself is the same as one that was given to me a couple of years ago.

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Originally Posted by Syme

If you are going to use a knife for self-defense, the most important thing to have is serious training. Don't carry a knife for self-defense unless you have spent the time and money to take a serious, in-depth combat knife course. The course should last a couple of months and won't be cheap. Don't think you can just buy a neat knife and carry around with you and you'll be ready to defend yourself with it. Unless you actually know what you are doing, pulling a knife in a self-defense situation actually makes you more likely to be hurt or killed than if you didn't have the knife at all. It's incredibly dangerous, much more dangerous than using your bare hands or just trying to run away. You are quite likely to end up getting slashed/stabbed with your own knife. If you don't have the needed training, don't carry a knife for self-defense. Also, be intimately familiar with your state's knife laws. In many places the carry of knives is actually more restricted than the carry of handguns. All told, if you really want to carry a deadly weapon for self-defense, a pistol is a better choice. It is much easier to use effectively, it is much less dangerous to you, and it is likely to be subject to fewer legal hassles.

That said, a good self-defense knife will have a blade profile suited to effective slashing, as well as a tip suited for effective stabbing. It should have grip shaping that allows for a strong, positive "saber" grip. The blade should be thick enough to have the necessary strength to stand up to the stresses of hard slashing and stabbing.

And just to repeat: Get serious training, or don't carry a knife for self-defense.

EDIT: And thinking that a big scary knife might end a confrontation just by it's appearance is probably like thinking that racking the slide on your pump-action will scare off a burglar: Silly, unrealistic, and possibly dangerous.

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Where would one go about finding one of these combat knife training classes? I've never heard of this before and would be seriously interested. I'd rather carry a knife than a gun on a day to day basis.

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Originally Posted by Syme

If you are going to use a knife for self-defense, the most important thing to have is serious training. Don't carry a knife for self-defense unless you have spent the time and money to take a serious, in-depth combat knife course. The course should last a couple of months and won't be cheap. Don't think you can just buy a neat knife and carry around with you and you'll be ready to defend yourself with it. Unless you actually know what you are doing, pulling a knife in a self-defense situation actually makes you more likely to be hurt or killed than if you didn't have the knife at all. It's incredibly dangerous, much more dangerous than using your bare hands or just trying to run away. You are quite likely to end up getting slashed/stabbed with your own knife. If you don't have the needed training, don't carry a knife for self-defense. Also, be intimately familiar with your state's knife laws. In many places the carry of knives is actually more restricted than the carry of handguns. All told, if you really want to carry a deadly weapon for self-defense, a pistol is a better choice. It is much easier to use effectively, it is much less dangerous to you, and it is likely to be subject to fewer legal hassles.

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While I appreciate your insight, I carry knives for self-defense as an option. I agree that haphazardly pulling out a knife if you feel you're in danger is a dumb move, even if you're trained in the usage of it, and I also agree with the notion that being trained in knife usage is a huge benefit and marginalizes potential self injury.

But if you're going to tell me that being untrained and having a knife on you has zero benefits, I feel as though you're displaying a degree of elitism and/or cynicism. The flaw with your argument being entirely cohesive in every situation is that you have a choice in pulling the knife in the first place, and you still have the option of running after it's been pulled. Unless you're fighting superman who uses his X-Ray vision, there's no possible way for another individual to know you even are equipped with one in your pocket. Judgment is key to using any deadly weapon, and without it you can become injured by just about anything, screwdrivers, pens, etc (firearms as well).

Anyway, don't take this reply as an argument to your points as it's not, because I agree with what you're saying in the vast majority of situations. I just felt as though I had to defend myself from patronization.

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Originally Posted by Syme

That said, a good self-defense knife will have a blade profile suited to effective slashing, as well as a tip suited for effective stabbing. It should have grip shaping that allows for a strong, positive "saber" grip. The blade should be thick enough to have the necessary strength to stand up to the stresses of hard slashing and stabbing.

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Thank you for your information.

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Originally Posted by solecistic

I think the whole "hyuck I need a gun for self defense" argument is really ridiculous as a general rule, but it's nowhere near as retarded as "hyuck I live in Philly I need a big knife."

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I'm not sure I've ever read a more ignorant statement from you before, given what Killuminati had just posted prior to your reply.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous D

I personally wouldnt carry a knife for self defense, becuase if the other person has a gun, you are basically fucked. Dont bring a knife to what could be a gun fight.

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If the other person has a gun, you're fucked from the get-go unless you have a gun yourself. Having a knife folded in your pocket has no bearing on the outcome of that situation.

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Originally Posted by faesce

While I appreciate your insight, I carry knives for self-defense as an option. I agree that haphazardly pulling out a knife if you feel you're in danger is a dumb move, even if you're trained in the usage of it, and I also agree with the notion that being trained in knife usage is a huge benefit and marginalizes potential self injury.

But if you're going to tell me that being untrained and having a knife on you has zero benefits, I feel as though you're displaying a degree of elitism and/or cynicism. The flaw with your argument being entirely cohesive in every situation is that you have a choice in pulling the knife in the first place, and you still have the option of running after it's been pulled. Unless you're fighting superman who uses his X-Ray vision, there's no possible way for another individual to know you even are equipped with one in your pocket. Judgment is key to using any deadly weapon, and without it you can become injured by just about anything, screwdrivers, pens, etc (firearms as well).

Anyway, don't take this reply as an argument to your points as it's not, because I agree with what you're saying in the vast majority of situations. I just felt as though I had to defend myself from patronization.

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I'd agree that simply carrying the knife can't hurt, since you do of course have the choice of whether to use it; I was just saying that, generally speaking, for an untrained person, pulling a knife is more likely to worsen the situation than to improve it, so it can be generally viewed as counterproductive and ineffective as a self-defense measure. Obviously this isn't true in EVERY situation, but since you can't know in advance whether or not a given situation is one where pulling your knife will help or hurt you, it's best for untrained people to stick with the rule of thumb that it's always a bad idea, because that rule will hold true in most cases.

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Originally Posted by Shinysides

Where would one go about finding one of these combat knife training classes? I've never heard of this before and would be seriously interested. I'd rather carry a knife than a gun on a day to day basis.

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Yellow pages and Google are probably the best way to find one. Look for non-firearm self-defense classes, especially knife self-defense classes or those that advertise as including knife or counter-knife techniques. I've never taken such a class (I'm lazy and just rely on my CCW), so I couldn't provide any recommendation more specific than that. It might also be a good idea to join some self-defense forums and talk to people to make sure that the class you choose is known as a reputable one with an instructor who actually knows what they're talking about, since there's a lot of BS out there when it comes to this sort of thing. I'm sure if you joined the right forum, there would be members who could help point you to good classes in your area.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by faesce

I'm not sure I've ever read a more ignorant statement from you before, given what Killuminati had just posted prior to your reply.

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Mostly, I was being facetious. It seemed as if Killuminati was being particularly dense about this subject, which honestly surprised me. He's not a dumb guy. I do not really believe that all gun/knife lovers are idiots or hicks. I'm surprised I needed to qualify that, but that's all right. Now it's taken care of.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Syme

I'd agree that simply carrying the knife can't hurt, since you do of course have the choice of whether to use it; I was just saying that, generally speaking, for an untrained person, pulling a knife is more likely to worsen the situation than to improve it, so it can be generally viewed as counterproductive and ineffective as a self-defense measure. Obviously this isn't true in EVERY situation, but since you can't know in advance whether or not a given situation is one where pulling your knife will help or hurt you, it's best for untrained people to stick with the rule of thumb that it's always a bad idea, because that rule will hold true in most cases.

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thumbsup

edit: and no, killuminati is actually really dumb irl. anybody with intelligence wouldn't be so cruel as to invite me into their garage to smoke from the most amazing bong ever and then bounce to philly leaving a void in my heart left from the illadelph smoke :(

I've personally achieved a brown belt in kenpo, and I'm quite fit. I also practice with my trusty two incher quite a bit, and I have several books and videos on knife fighting that I use as guides or suggestions for practice, so I'd say I'm secure about my level of proficiency with a blade for self defense. Just to clear up any concerns anyone might have :)

I have a few questions.

Is the ability to open a knife in an "icepick grip" useful, or just fancy? Out of sheer curiosity, I tried and found that I could without much extra effort. Of course, I can't really find a viable way to carry my knife that would lend itself to icepick drawing.

Is serration good, bad, or useless (for a self-defense knife)? I don't like serration myself.

Does a tanto point offer any significant advantages or disadvantages over other commonly found tips, such as clip, drop, and spear-point blades? I admit that I prefer them completely for almost completely aesthetic reasons, but from my limited knowledge of physics (A average in 2nd year college-level course) it seems that first point would spread out the force of an impact, allowing the second point to pierce effectively. They look as if they'd be quite stable for stabbing, as well.

Presently, I'm considering the following knives:

Amazon.com: Columbia River Knife And Tool M16-01KZ EED (Every Day Carry) 3-inch Zytel Black Folding Kife with Autolawk and Spear Point Razor Edge Blade, 7.125-inchT otal Length: Home Improvement

Amazon.com: Schrade SC60BT Extreme Survival Black Blade Tanto W/ Glass Breaker: Home Improvement

Amazon.com: Schrade Nitro Magic Black S/S Handle Black Tanto Pl.: Sports & Outdoors

Martial arts training is good but there is probably no substitute for actual, dedicated, knife training. What you have is definitely better than nothing, though, I suppose.

If you practice with your knife, you probably already know that transitioning from a blade-upward grip to an icepick grip is very quick and easy, so I wouldn't worry too much about whether it's possible to open it from that position. There doesn't seem to be any reason why you'd ever be in trouble if you couldn't open the knife directly from an icepick grip. Serrations don't really matter much for slashing. They are mainly useful on utility knives for tough cutting, and for allowing the knife to cut effectively despite not being very sharp. Tanto points are very strong and penetrate well when stabbing, but the Tanto blade profile is just about the worst possible shape for cutting, which makes Tanto points utterly retarded on utility/outdoorsy knifes. They are less retarded on fighting knives, but still probably kind of pointless unless you expect to be stabbing cops through their vest.

If you want a really good blade profile for a self-defense knife, look at the Emerson Commander or knives with similar blade shapes. Chisel-ground edges are kind of fiddly when it comes to fine cutting, so it might not make a great everyday utility knife, but the blade profile is incredibly vicious and will really just slash the living fuck out of you. I know I've already come out against using a knife for self-defense, and I really don't want to advocate slashing people, but damn... for the knife's size, it's unbelievable how badly you can mess someone up with a Commander-type blade profile.

Do you think the Kershaw Storm II is a good knife?

Well, I have never handled or used one. But it looks good for the price. 13C26 is a mid-range stainless steel that's become popular recently, it is supposedly formulated with edge retention as it's #1 priority, which is nice. It's about in the same range as 440A (i.e., not top-shelf, but decent) but it has a bit more carbon in solution which means it can be hardened a bit more. Exactly how much Kershaw hardens theirs, I can't say. Aside from the steel, the blade profile looks pretty wicked for cutting (a lot like the Commander's, actually). I'd say it would be a good buy overall.

who needs a knife when you could have...

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/6349/321clamps.gif

...DA CLAMPS!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by solecistic

The idea that knife training isn't 100% absolutely necessary is not only stupid, it's fucking dangerous.

It's not even about being a "tough guy." It's about not being a retard.

I think the whole "hyuck I need a gun for self defense" argument is really ridiculous as a general rule, but it's nowhere near as retarded as "hyuck I live in Philly I need a big knife." You're going to get maimed or killed pulling that thing out like a hero in the wrong situation. If you're "defending your girl" and the bad guy takes your knife from you, you're also putting her at significantly higher risk. It's fucked up. Get trained or put the big boy toys away.

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A knife, like many things, is intuitive to human nature.


Advanced footwork/ technique may not be, but anyone can seriously injure another without having the knife taken away.

Contrary to popular belief, muggers do not have the ability to use "the force" to pull a weapon out of your hands and "use it on _____ [insert g/f, oneself]"






Also, I'm going to go ahead and come out and say it:


SOG knives are shit.

The owner is simply an artist who had the brains to start a knife company. Being an artist, his designs appeal to people.


Get a model designed by a real maker.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DAVIDSDIVAD

A knife, like many things, is intuitive to human nature.

Advanced footwork/ technique may not be, but anyone can seriously injure another without having the knife taken away.

Contrary to popular belief, muggers do not have the ability to use "the force" to pull a weapon out of your hands and "use it on _____ [insert g/f, oneself]"

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Actually, crime statistics do show that attempting to defend yourself with a knife results in a quite high likelihood of being injured, much higher than other methods of self-defense. Yes, it IS quite easy to get stabbed with your own knife when attempting to defend yourself with it. It's pretty hard to get shot with your own gun or sprayed with your own pepper spray (assuming you know how to use the latter), but it's not very hard at all to get stabbed with your own knife.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Syme

Actually, crime statistics do show that attempting to defend yourself with a knife results in a quite high likelihood of being injured, much higher than other methods of self-defense. Yes, it IS quite easy to get stabbed with your own knife when attempting to defend yourself with it. It's pretty hard to get shot with your own gun or sprayed with your own pepper spray (assuming you know how to use the latter), but it's not very hard at all to get stabbed with your own knife.

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Syme, give me a break.


Those studies include gang bangers as participants, just like all of the other "don't defend yourself, you'll just get hurt" studies.

it's not about 'don't defend yourself' it's about 'don't use tools you don't know how to'

a situation where you're trying to defend yourself can escalate from being an unarmed scuffle to you and your assailant wrestling over your knife, and if I was in the latter situation, I would wish I was in the former. It's even worse if both of you have knives - neither of you is walking away without a serious injury if you end up fighting, even if you're trained.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by coqauvin

it's not about 'don't defend yourself' it's about 'don't use tools you don't know how to'

a situation where you're trying to defend yourself can escalate from being an unarmed scuffle to you and your assailant wrestling over your knife, and if I was in the latter situation, I would wish I was in the former. It's even worse if both of you have knives - neither of you is walking away without a serious injury if you end up fighting, even if you're trained.

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That's the argument I'm trying to present.

People were killing, and defending themselves well enough before the invention of training and certification.


The use of a knife in a violent situation is not rocket science.


The footwork, grip techniques, and other minutia of the various martial arts associated with "knives" is, however, very complicated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DAVIDSDIVAD

That's the argument I'm trying to present.

People were killing, and defending themselves well enough before the invention of training and certification.


The use of a knife in a violent situation is not rocket science.

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I'm not going to waste my time arguing with every person who wants to insist that self-defense with a knife isn't dangerous (the internet is full of such people). I've already explained why it's a bad idea, if the only counterargument you can offer is "dude it's not rocket science" then you are obviously not examining the issue intelligently. Again, pretty much all reputable self-defense instructors will tell you the same thing: Trying to use a knife for self-defense, unless you are a proficient knife-fighter, is a bad idea in every way. You can accept that fact or ignore it. I find that the people who want to ignore it are usually immature or hot-headed individuals who like the idea of knife self-defense on an emotional level and aren't willing to let the facts intrude.

As for the studies I mentioned, no, they do not "include gang bangers as participants". You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. They are statistical studies based on UCR figures or other government data, so they don't have any "participants" at all.

Everyone in the UK needs a knife.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Syme

I'm not going to waste my time arguing with every person who wants to insist that self-defense with a knife isn't dangerous (the internet is full of such people). I've already explained why it's a bad idea, if the only counterargument you can offer is "dude it's not rocket science" then you are obviously not examining the issue intelligently. Again, pretty much all reputable self-defense instructors will tell you the same thing: Trying to use a knife for self-defense, unless you are a proficient knife-fighter, is a bad idea in every way. You can accept that fact or ignore it. I find that the people who want to ignore it are usually immature or hot-headed individuals who like the idea of knife self-defense on an emotional level and aren't willing to let the facts intrude.

As for the studies I mentioned, no, they do not "include gang bangers as participants". You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. They are statistical studies based on UCR figures or other government data, so they don't have any "participants" at all.

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Unless there are knife duels among the common citizens of America, then I don't see how they wouldn't include unsavory individuals like "gang bangers" to compile that amount of data.

TL;DR

When did I say it wasn't dangerous?

I just said it doesn't take a black belt to know that if you cut at someone's wrists, they are going to let you go either from pain, or on the off chance that you sever some tendons on the back of their hands.

It also doesn't take a reputable self defense expert to know that if you cut at someone's neck, it is not going to be conducive to being the victim of any further assaults from that person.


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0930121512.htm


Studies such as this do indeed include criminals and the goings on in their lives as sources of data. They aren't participants, per se, but I've never heard of any kind of epidemiological study that had participants in the pure sense of the word.




So, since I've elaborated the why of my argument, let's see you elaborate on your side.

How exactly, does an assailant take a knife from an individual?
Isn't taking a knife from someone using it as a weapon generally considered to be a difficult thing best left to "reputable self defense instructors?"

This again falls under the fallacy that all muggers/assailants are magical jedi knights who will disarm you with the blink of an eye.

If they don't take the knife, how do they manage to stab you with it?



Now, please, elaborate on how an assailant injures an able bodied person who is using a knife as a weapon.




EDIT: I should state that I do not carry a knife for self defense.

That's what my 1911 is for.

i'm just going to point out that, with training, you could disarm an assailant armed with a knife. with training, you could also prevent yourself from being disarmed in the case of a scuffle, regardless of whether the assailant has training or experience.

also, if the two of you are fighting over a knife, who knows who will be stabbed? someone will be, and it's just as likely to be you as him.

coq is right, an attacker doesn't have to be a "jedi master who will disarm you in the blink of an eye" in order for you to get stabbed with your own knife. I'm not saying that the attacker will necessarily take your knife away from you, I'm saying that in a physical altercation with a knife involved it's quite difficult for an untrained person to control the situation. Someone is going to be stabbed and it could just as easily be you as it could be your attacker.

Just to be clear, are you advocating drawing a knife on an unarmed assailant? Because completely irrespective of whether that puts you in danger of being stabbed with your own knife, that puts you in considerable danger of getting into severe legal trouble and going to jail for quite some time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Syme

coq is right, an attacker doesn't have to be a "jedi master who will disarm you in the blink of an eye" in order for you to get stabbed with your own knife. I'm not saying that the attacker will necessarily take your knife away from you, I'm saying that in a physical altercation with a knife involved it's quite difficult for an untrained person to control the situation. Someone is going to be stabbed and it could just as easily be you as it could be your attacker.

Just to be clear, are you advocating drawing a knife on an unarmed assailant? Because completely irrespective of whether that puts you in danger of being stabbed with your own knife, that puts you in considerable danger of getting into severe legal trouble and going to jail for quite some time.

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LOL, I didn't ask you to quote Coq.
I asked for a reasonable scenario outside of the realm of Steven Seagull movies where a person could take away a knife from a lay person with ease, and do so with the deliberate action and confidenc necessary to get anything more than a handful of hand, or sharp and pokey metal.
Think about it in a realistic fashion, from the assailants P.O.V. :
You are squared off against an able bodied person holding a knife.
They are mobile, and so are you.
What do you grab to get the knife away?

The handle? It's inside of their grip.

Their wrist? You'd better be faster than Bruce Lee on Redbull.

The blade? yeah, but you'd better throw some ninja stars first.







No, I'm advocating drawing my knife in a " would you be so kind as to get away from me so that I might produce a pistol" fashion.
Besides, there are waaaayyy too many variables to consider before making a statement like that.
Ability, Oppurtunity and Jeopardy =/= weapon. So, yes, if I believed an assailant had the capability to kill me, and oppurtunity to kill me, I would produce a weapon to stop them.




So, before I was shouted down by cries of "DONT USE A WEAPON, THEY'LL ONLY USE IT ON YOUUUUU", let's go back and review my original point(s.)
A.) You don't need training to seriously hurt an attacker with a knife.
B.) You do need training to have perfect footwork, timing, and such

wow fuck you are a moron just shut up

fuck

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pandar

Everyone in the UK needs a knife.

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to fight the powa

the billy club-armed powa

Quote:

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Originally Posted by solecistic

wow fuck you are a moron just shut up

fuck

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EDIT: It sounds like, in order for you to accept that an untrained knife user is at high risk of being stabbed in an physical altercation, you are insisting that someone describe to you in explicit detail the exact physical movements that would have to occur for this to happen. This is why people ITT think you're a moron, in case you were wondering.

THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS


Anyway, I digress and agree that it's likely that the individuals involved in a fight involving a knife will likely be stabbed and or cut. That's how sharp and pokey things work.



blablablab, solestic pretend this is a well thought out comeback, blablabal, pool video, blabalabl

The pool video was ellesdees not solecstics.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DAVIDSDIVAD

You are squared off against an able bodied person holding a knife.
They are mobile, and so are you.
What do you grab to get the knife away?

---

probably the same way unarmed fighters can break arms from an overextended punch. you don't really need to be spectactular to grab an arm and twist, or squeeze a pressure point and make a hand release a knife, but you need to be good. training makes these moves reflexes, so you can react in proper timing to such manoevres. It's not without risk, certainly, but you don't need to grab the knife to disarm them - you just need to get control of their weapon arm.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DAVIDSDIVAD

So, before I was shouted down by cries of "DONT USE A WEAPON, THEY'LL ONLY USE IT ON YOUUUUU", let's go back and review my original point(s.)
A.) You don't need training to seriously hurt an attacker with a knife.
B.) You do need training to have perfect footwork, timing, and such

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A.) strictly speaking, no - the rule of 'pointy end goes in bad guy' is pretty simple in nature, but it's harder than you think to stab someone who is prepared for you, regardless of whether or not they have training.
B.) well, yes, this goes without saying, but you realize these things minimize danger for you so why are you arguing against them?

the issue isn't 'don't use a weapon' it's 'don't use a weapon you aren't trained to use'

Quote:

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Originally Posted by coqauvin

probably the same way unarmed fighters can break arms from an overextended punch. you don't really need to be spectactular to grab an arm and twist, or squeeze a pressure point and make a hand release a knife, but you need to be good. training makes these moves reflexes, so you can react in proper timing to such manoevres. It's not without risk, certainly, but you don't need to grab the knife to disarm them - you just need to get control of their weapon arm.




A.) strictly speaking, no - the rule of 'pointy end goes in bad guy' is pretty simple in nature, but it's harder than you think to stab someone who is prepared for you, regardless of whether or not they have training.
B.) well, yes, this goes without saying, but you realize these things minimize danger for you so why are you arguing against them?

the issue isn't 'don't use a weapon' it's 'don't use a weapon you aren't trained to use'

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There's the funny part.

I never said "LOL YOU DUN NEED TRAINING"

I did say that pulling a knife in a life or death scenario does not mean that the knife will automatically rocket into your gut.
I never said "knife fight"


A.) I trained a few times with a little Philipino guy who went to church with my parents. He is one bad dude, but unless you move the stab in a straight line, it's hard as shit to catch.

It's even harder to keep someone who you are choking/ grabbing/ etc.. from hurting yer wrists.


B.) I'm not.



Let me re emphasize my points.

1.)
Knife fighting is best left to Steven Seagulls in submarines.

2.)
Knives are good at getting someone away from you in a hurry

coq you bastard

i think i just realized this is a mrdie-esque person i am arguing with, so i'm just going to stop now

Problem, Coqauvin?

in b4 syme

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DAVIDSDIVAD

I did say that pulling a knife in a life or death scenario does not mean that the knife will automatically rocket into your gut.

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Yeah but no-one said this would happen. What was said is that an untrained person pulling a knife in a physical altercation is at high risk of making the situation worse and/or getting injured with their own knife, so if someone is looking for a self-defense weapon to carry around with them, a knife is not a very good choice.

You are all over the place with whatever point you are trying to make, and I don't understand why on earth you would feel compelled to say what you just said.

I see what you're saying, Syme.

I agree.


I think Crunker should go with the Ken Onion design.

I just got a KA BAR fighting/utility knife. It came with a leather sheath, but I'm getting a Kydex sheath, Boker Tek Lock, and a CRKT MercHarness just because.

For more practical reasons, I'm also getting a Buck 199. They should all hopefully be here by Friday.

So far, I haven't exactly used the KA Bar yet, but it's certainly a well-built tool.

I've had a KA-BAR for years. Killed few ducks and rabbits with it too. They are awesome knifes. Not exactly meant for carrying on a normal basis though.

This is embarrassing... but how does one close a framelock knife? >>

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crunker

This is embarrassing... but how does one close a framelock knife? >>

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lol

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...n/100_1359.jpg

A part of the frame is kinda spring loaded, so it goes under the blade so it cant close, just push it back out so it clears the blade, and close it.

lol i forgot about this thread

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crunker

This is embarrassing... but how does one close a framelock knife? >>

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oh dear.

i hope you're planning on using that knife for self-defense.

I wanted to make sure I was doing it properly.

One handed usually. I think for safety you should use two hands but most of the time my other hand is holding something else.

I do it one handed. Even with my assisted open.

i personally use my penis to close frame lock knives

I do it no handed

With your double, no triple, no quadruple fold katana deagle?

Deagle brand deagle