Marines Humiliating dead Taliban insurgents

This was posted today. Most of our troops out there are doing heroic things risking their lives for our country and just trying to humbly serve for one good reason or another. This, this is embarrassing and incredibly shameful, and recording it they are beyond stupid. The whole idea of America being a better country is that we are above certain things like desecrating the corpses of our enemy. These guys are not only shitcanned but everyone in their chain of command probably just had their career ended.

LiveLeak.com - Marines Humiliating dead Taliban insurgents

Lol.

Fuck it man, it's war.

"All's fair in love and war"

I, for one, am pretty numb to this.

While we're justifying torturing living people and ruining people's lives by incarcerating teenagers and very young adults, I'm suppose to get incensed and publicly lambaste these soldiers, who are in circumstances so dire and dreadful that I'll never know what they're going through, for doing things to the corpses of people that they've been commanded to treat as their "enemies"?

It's just like how we were "suppose" to get angry at soldiers guarding Abu Grave for acting in a way that was in accordance with the culture of prisoner humiliation and dehumanization that military leaders were encouraging among their soldiers.

You can do it if you want, but frankly I'm tired of dealing with all these fine, hair-thin distinctions between crap like, for instance, "weapons of mass destruction" vs. "conventional weapons" that are just as or more deadly, or proper battlefield conduct while ignoring the insanity happening even when soldiers are conducting themselves in the most professional manner they can, because of orders coming from the top brass and from the legacy of horrible decisions the American government has made regarding military action.

I'm also tired of pretending as though the Obama administration is any more legitimate than the Bush administration when they've continued their predecessor's fine work of shredding the Bill of Rights.


Things are too complicated, and the media is too equivocating and cowardly to provide any real information aside from parroting official hogwash given by politicians that, regardless of party affiliation, are all interested in pushing public discourse in a direction away from the real underlying issues.

But I will say that I'm not going to harbor any self-righteous indignation at these soldiers put in a situation they have no control over for relieving tension by doing things to inanimate objects.


EDIT: Also it took me a moment to realize what they were doing. They were just urinating, and those corpses HAAAAPPENED to be there. The sun was in their eyes, so they couldn't see the corpses, and the camera guy didn't know the camera was on.

Well I mean it looks like they knew they were on camera so i mean those soldiers are pretty retarded for that. I don't see how they thought they wouldn't get in trouble for this. However, I pretty much agree with what scyld said. There are much worse horrors going on in the world than a few US soldiers pissing on dead enemy combatants.

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Originally Posted by KT.

There are much worse horrors going on in the world than a few US soldiers pissing on dead enemy combatants.

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and because they are not soldiers they don't have any rights under the geneva convention, and because they have no status under the US constitution they don't have any rights under that either.

so they don't exist. the soldiers are peeing on non-entities, which are what these dead enemy combatants are.

scyld i read about 20 words in your post and i have to say something

also how do you humiliate a corpse

I'm just upset over idiots. Yeah, it is war and there are a lot of terrible things out there, but just this moment I felt very angry.

I felt very lol

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Originally Posted by faesce

scyld i read about 20 words in your post and i have to say something

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i'm so glad you did :heart:

What a bunch of idiots.

What a waste of urine.

Theyve apparently identified 2 of them and are preparing criminal charges

First it's illegal to have sex with corpses, now it's illegal to piss on them? What is this, Soviet Russia?

in soviet russia corpse have sex with you

News has made me indifferent.

Dumbasses bein' dumbasses.

Shit like this happens all the time. These guys were stupid enough to let someone video tape it. Thats where they fucked up.

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Originally Posted by Atmoscheer

First it's illegal to have sex with corpses

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wait... what???


shit i better treat my telling crotch rot :(

I think it's completely unnecessary

This isn't a moral issue. Part of Petraeus' whole counterinsurgency plan was "winning the hearts and minds" of the people. It's one thing if this happens--that doesn't matter. It's quite another when you're video taping it and it gets out. Idiots.

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Originally Posted by sycld

I, for one, am pretty numb to this.

While we're justifying torturing living people and ruining people's lives by incarcerating teenagers and very young adults, I'm suppose to get incensed and publicly lambaste these soldiers, who are in circumstances so dire and dreadful that I'll never know what they're going through, for doing things to the corpses of people that they've been commanded to treat as their "enemies"?

It's just like how we were "suppose" to get angry at soldiers guarding Abu Grave for acting in a way that was in accordance with the culture of prisoner humiliation and dehumanization that military leaders were encouraging among their soldiers.

You can do it if you want, but frankly I'm tired of dealing with all these fine, hair-thin distinctions between crap like, for instance, "weapons of mass destruction" vs. "conventional weapons" that are just as or more deadly, or proper battlefield conduct while ignoring the insanity happening even when soldiers are conducting themselves in the most professional manner they can, because of orders coming from the top brass and from the legacy of horrible decisions the American government has made regarding military action.

I'm also tired of pretending as though the Obama administration is any more legitimate than the Bush administration when they've continued their predecessor's fine work of shredding the Bill of Rights.


Things are too complicated, and the media is too equivocating and cowardly to provide any real information aside from parroting official hogwash given by politicians that, regardless of party affiliation, are all interested in pushing public discourse in a direction away from the real underlying issues.

But I will say that I'm not going to harbor any self-righteous indignation at these soldiers put in a situation they have no control over for relieving tension by doing things to inanimate objects.


EDIT: Also it took me a moment to realize what they were doing. They were just urinating, and those corpses HAAAAPPENED to be there. The sun was in their eyes, so they couldn't see the corpses, and the camera guy didn't know the camera was on.

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Great post! I don't agree 100%, but you have an interesting opinion.

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Originally Posted by sycld

and because they are not soldiers they don't have any rights under the geneva convention, and because they have no status under the US constitution they don't have any rights under that either.

so they don't exist. the soldiers are peeing on non-entities, which are what these dead enemy combatants are.

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I do disagree with this, though. I recently took both the Army and the NATO Law of Land Warfare courses, and throughout them it is stressed that we (American service members) will adhere to the Geneva and Hague conventions even when our enemies do not. This is what separated us from the Japanese, Germans (though they treated most Western prisoners decently), and Russians in WWII.

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Originally Posted by Mad Pino Rage

I'm just upset over idiots. Yeah, it is war and there are a lot of terrible things out there, but just this moment I felt very angry.

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As do most veterans of the recent conflicts. Judging from the Milblogs, there seems to be two major types of veterans: those who are cool with the situation but cannot believe the stupidity of the Marines, and those who cannot believe that they would act in such a manner in the first place. I fall into the latter category.

As an NCO with ten years of service, it has been pounded into my head to never do anything to shame the US, the Army, my peers, or myself. That said, I've done my share of stupid stuff both in and out of uniform. Witnesses are one thing, but cameras and camcorders are another. It's the digital age, and I can't understand how anyone would film themselves doing something that may be illegal. When I was in Iraq almost nine years ago technology was primitive at best. Most of the deployment we had limited phone and computer access (the first six months amounted to one ten-minute call a month), disposable cameras sent in care packages, and no unsupervised contact with the outside world. I thought I was moving up in the world when I bought my "Iraqimatic" 2.1 MP camera from a local vendor. Now, from what I understand, Soldiers in theater have personal cell phones (most of which take decent photos and video) and outside of isolated COPs, computer access and video uploads are easy (Youtube also wasn't around in my day).

If I were there I'd have stopped it. Not due to any lack of humor on my part, or a desire to stop my men from having fun; not due to having a love for some POS' who just tried to kill me; and not due to the fact that it was or wasn't being filmed. Everyone in that video will likely be fried, from the lowest Pvt to the NCO(s) present. A random Pvt or LCpl who was present but not taking part will probably emerge unscathed, but any NCO who did not intervene will be adversely affected whether or not they took part.

Another reason I don't like that video is because I have a respect for the dead that comes with my profession. I never took photos of corpses on the road to Baghdad because I knew that I might very well be one of those corpses. Besides, the images are still fresh in my mind all these years later. My views on the Taliban are much different than my views on the Republican Guard and Iraqi Army, but once an enemy has fallen they cease to be an enemy regardless. The same holds true for wounded enemies. We're taught since basic training that once we pass an enemy on the objective he becomes our responsibility unless he tries to continue fighting. Food, water, shelter, and medical care must be provided.

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Originally Posted by jack burden

This isn't a moral issue. Part of Petraeus' whole counterinsurgency plan was "winning the hearts and minds" of the people. It's one thing if this happens--that doesn't matter. It's quite another when you're video taping it and it gets out. Idiots.

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Concurred. They could have gotten satisfaction out of doing this, never recorded it, and no one would be the wiser. Instead, they decided to record it for posterity, in the process giving the media another story of "outrageous" criminal acts and giving the military evidence that will destroy their careers. Hell, they should all get dishonorable discharges for stupidity.

look at that. an informed, rational response.

Lets just take a moment to appreciate it before it gets ignored by the media.

We need to throw two parades: one for these heroic soldiers

One for warhawk's triumphant return

Sup buddy

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Originally Posted by fm2176

As do most veterans of the recent conflicts. Judging from the Milblogs, there seems to be two major types of veterans: those who are cool with the situation but cannot believe the stupidity of the Marines, and those who cannot believe that they would act in such a manner in the first place. I fall into the latter category.

As an NCO with ten years of service, it has been pounded into my head to never do anything to shame the US, the Army, my peers, or myself. That said, I've done my share of stupid stuff both in and out of uniform. Witnesses are one thing, but cameras and camcorders are another. It's the digital age, and I can't understand how anyone would film themselves doing something that may be illegal. When I was in Iraq almost nine years ago technology was primitive at best. Most of the deployment we had limited phone and computer access (the first six months amounted to one ten-minute call a month), disposable cameras sent in care packages, and no unsupervised contact with the outside world. I thought I was moving up in the world when I bought my "Iraqimatic" 2.1 MP camera from a local vendor. Now, from what I understand, Soldiers in theater have personal cell phones (most of which take decent photos and video) and outside of isolated COPs, computer access and video uploads are easy (Youtube also wasn't around in my day).

If I were there I'd have stopped it. Not due to any lack of humor on my part, or a desire to stop my men from having fun; not due to having a love for some POS' who just tried to kill me; and not due to the fact that it was or wasn't being filmed. Everyone in that video will likely be fried, from the lowest Pvt to the NCO(s) present. A random Pvt or LCpl who was present but not taking part will probably emerge unscathed, but any NCO who did not intervene will be adversely affected whether or not they took part.

Another reason I don't like that video is because I have a respect for the dead that comes with my profession. I never took photos of corpses on the road to Baghdad because I knew that I might very well be one of those corpses. Besides, the images are still fresh in my mind all these years later. My views on the Taliban are much different than my views on the Republican Guard and Iraqi Army, but once an enemy has fallen they cease to be an enemy regardless. The same holds true for wounded enemies. We're taught since basic training that once we pass an enemy on the objective he becomes our responsibility unless he tries to continue fighting. Food, water, shelter, and medical care must be provided.



Concurred. They could have gotten satisfaction out of doing this, never recorded it, and no one would be the wiser. Instead, they decided to record it for posterity, in the process giving the media another story of "outrageous" criminal acts and giving the military evidence that will destroy their careers. Hell, they should all get dishonorable discharges for stupidity.

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I agree. The experiences of combat veterans will be something I'll never understand but I will respect with as much perspective as possible. However, that they recorded it and somehow ended up on the internet it feels to me that they wanted to be glorified for this specific action. Maybe that wasn't their intent. I think it would be safe to say whomever uploaded the video didn't knew the level of access and attention it would receive. Deep down I think there will be so much war and killing for maybe centuries to come, but I honestly wish there was no war, no need for killing, no need for destruction. Even with all the evidence of atrocities committed by people throughout human kind's history of conflict, I still like to believe, and this is an oxymoron, a better and more humane way to fight.

As an insight, I don't know what I'd actually do. If I was there, if I had participated in the moments leading up to the moment before they decided doing this, I know I would definitely do my best to stop them. If it were to happen, it wasn't recorded, and thinking that nobody else would ever know, I don't know what I would have done. I've done some shitty things in and out of uniform for myself or for others. I've looked the other way and probably could say without fact that it didn't hurt anyone or was of great insignificance. I just don't really know about this besides just feeling very angry that it happened. Thinking back to Abu Ghraib, I know I definitely didn't care then, but now things like that do upset me.

fm I appreciate your perspective, but you've overlooked your own hypocrisy. You said at the end that you've been taught that enemy combatants stop being enemies when they stop being combatants, which governs your reaction to the video. But just before that, you said as an NCO, you'd have stopped it because you would have been looped in on the punishments. I'm not saying that's irrational or abnormal (i mean, find me anyone who played football in high school "to win" and not just "to avoid getting yelled at in meetings and practice"), but it is hypocritical, unless you doubt that they training they received was the same as yours.

I respect the opinions and experiences of combat vets because I know I'll never share them, but I also recognize the human shortcomings in recognizing and attributing one's own thoughts and feelings.

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Originally Posted by Atmoscheer

fm I appreciate your perspective, but you've overlooked your own hypocrisy. You said at the end that you've been taught that enemy combatants stop being enemies when they stop being combatants, which governs your reaction to the video. But just before that, you said as an NCO, you'd have stopped it because you would have been looped in on the punishments. I'm not saying that's irrational or abnormal (i mean, find me anyone who played football in high school "to win" and not just "to avoid getting yelled at in meetings and practice"), but it is hypocritical, unless you doubt that they training they received was the same as yours.

I respect the opinions and experiences of combat vets because I know I'll never share them, but I also recognize the human shortcomings in recognizing and attributing one's own thoughts and feelings.

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I realize I worded my earlier statement in a misleading manner. I have a strong moral conviction when it comes to desecrating the dead, and while potential punishment would definitely be in my mind, the very act being committed would be my motivation to end it. The line between right and wrong is sometimes blurred by all of us, and each of us sometimes has our self-interest in mind when we choose right over wrong. So, you may be right, I don't know as discipline in my units has always trumped putting ourselves into stupid situations.

Even the best training cannot overcome personal biases. One such example is my statement that "My views on the Taliban are much different than my views on the Republican Guard and Iraqi Army..." I will always view those Iraqi soldiers that fought against us and died in a positive light. They died defending their country against a foreign invader (us). The later insurgents (many of whom had thrown down their uniforms in 2003 or crossed the Syrian border as "freedom fighters") do not have my respect, just as the Taliban doesn't (I respect their ability to create casualties, but not their tactics or techniques). Despite my personal thoughts, though, they are all considered enemy combatants, and though they'd behead one of us given the chance, we must treat them humanely. War in today's world is unfair in some ways, but if we begin down the path of our enemies we risk having society go back to the Middle Ages or earlier.

The training soldiers receive will always be different, based solely on the attitude of the soldier. I think it is the responsibility of any soldier responsible for the training of colleagues to recognise what works best for an individual. Some idiots will only respond out of fear. Some extremely strong moralists will respond to "human nature". The vast majority will respond to both and that is no bad thing. But if you know you have some idiots on your squad you don't tell them not to do something because the rule book says so. You emphasise what punishment they will get.

As I said, I think that is a responsibility. But even officers ignore their responsibilities. If you are being trained by someone who has no respect for the Geneva or Hague conventions and sees dead enemies as pieces of shit, then he will train his men with the same problems. But anybody with a strong sense of morality or even just any sort of personal belief regarding attitude will think differently.

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Originally Posted by fm2176

I do disagree with this, though. I recently took both the Army and the NATO Law of Land Warfare courses, and throughout them it is stressed that we (American service members) will adhere to the Geneva and Hague conventions even when our enemies do not. This is what separated us from the Japanese, Germans (though they treated most Western prisoners decently), and Russians in WWII.

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I was being sarcastic.

Of course, the Bush administration tried to argue that unlawful enemy combatants did not deserve protection under the Geneva Convention, but that assertion was struck down by the Supreme Court.

hah jokes on them the supreme court has no jurisdiction over the geneva conventions