Benefits of Cretan Law

In his The Laws Plato puts that there are eight benefits to Cretan law. The "human" and the "divine" benefits. The former not existing without the latter. Health heads the list of the "human" or lesser benefits, followed by beauty; third comes strength, for racing or other physical exercises. Wealth is fourth - not "blind" wealth, but the clear-sighted kind whose companion is good judgement - and good judgement itself is the leading "divine" benefit; second comes the habitual self-control of a soul that uses reason. If you combine these two with courage, you get (thirdly) justice; courage itself lies in fourth place. All these take a natural precedence over the others, and the lawgiver must of course rank them in the same order.

I feel that this is pretty accurate for most societies to this day, at least as ideals for benefits of society, if not actual benefits. Although this seems to take intelligence for granted, unless you lump it with good judgement, which would not be unheard of.

Do you mean this accurately sums up most societies today or that this is what most societies should strive for?

Being the pessimist that I am, I always feel that where ever there is a scrap of power/influence or wealth to be had, everything else including ideals is pushed aside. I think the benefits of this line of thinking would become apparent, but I don't really see this being applied in this day and age.

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Originally Posted by Shinysides

In his The Laws Plato puts that there are eight benefits to Cretan law. The "human" and the "divine" benefits. The former not existing without the latter. Health heads the list of the "human" or lesser benefits, followed by beauty; third comes strength, for racing or other physical exercises. Wealth is fourth - not "blind" wealth, but the clear-sighted kind whose companion is good judgement - and good judgement itself is the leading "divine" benefit; second comes the habitual self-control of a soul that uses reason. If you combine these two with courage, you get (thirdly) justice; courage itself lies in fourth place. All these take a natural precedence over the others, and the lawgiver must of course rank them in the same order.

I feel that this is pretty accurate for most societies to this day, at least as ideals for benefits of society, if not actual benefits. Although this seems to take intelligence for granted, unless you lump it with good judgement, which would not be unheard of.

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I don't exactly see what you want to discuss. Or are you just mentally masturbating and ejaculating your creamy knowledge about Plato all over us? Because there's not really anything in your post which anyone can respond to unless they're a philosophy student.

Sorry, I meant that this is more of what societies should strive for rather than what they actually achieve. And you're right, most of this isn't applied very many places in this day and age, but I wonder what it would be like if these ideals were striven for by every man, not just some. Would we then encounter a utopian society? Or would the first person to break from these ideals have the power to destroy the entire society through their own inadequacies? For example, such an idealistic society would be at great risk from those seeking to abuse such idealism. I find it hard to believe that a utopian society could ever exist on any level, much less the entire world. It's hard to decide where to draw the line between idealism and realism sometimes.

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Originally Posted by simonj

I don't exactly see what you want to discuss. Or are you just mentally masturbating and ejaculating your creamy knowledge about Plato all over us? Because there's not really anything in your post which anyone can respond to unless they're a philosophy student.

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If you don't enjoy philosophy, feel free to gtfo. I'm not trying to spark a discussion so much as provoke thought about the ideals of Cretan law versus the ideals of ourselves and our own countries.

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Originally Posted by Shinysides

If you don't enjoy philosophy, feel free to gtfo. I'm not trying to spark a discussion so much as provoke thought about the ideals of Cretan law versus the ideals of ourselves and our own countries.

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It's not that I don't enjoy philosophy because I do. My point was that you offered little chance for discussion in your opening post (which you've somewhat rectified now) and it's also a little impregnable unless you're totally familiar with these particular ideals.

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Originally Posted by Shinysides

If you don't enjoy philosophy, feel free to gtfo. I'm not trying to spark a discussion so much as provoke thought about the ideals of Cretan law versus the ideals of ourselves and our own countries.

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We all enjoy philosophy if we're posting in here.

I, for one, do not know what Cretan Law is (at first I thought it was the rule by which lived cretins, misspelt). Would you please explain it and see if you can sum up the objective of this thread? It seems interesting, only I can't quite penetrate it.

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Originally Posted by gwahir

We all enjoy philosophy if we're posting in here.

I, for one, do not know what Cretan Law is (at first I thought it was the rule by which lived cretins, misspelt). Would you please explain it and see if you can sum up the objective of this thread? It seems interesting, only I can't quite penetrate it.

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Well, I'll sum it up as briefly as I can.

First, a little background history on The Laws. Plato wrote many philosophical dialogues in his time, and The Laws stands out for a few reasons; firstly, Plato wrote three works based on how societies should be governed. The first was The Republic and is probably the most optimistic and light-hearted of the three. Second he wrote The Statesman, which forms a bridge between The Republic and The Laws. And lastly, he wrote The Laws. The reason The Laws are so special is because it completely flies in the face of The Republic, and the two are almost contradictory. It is also special because it was the last thing Plato ever wrote, and some have given it to be the writings of an old man who has become bitter with the world around him.

In The Laws Plato creates a small hypothetical utopian country named Magnesia. His laws not only govern crime and punishment, but also form a code of conduct for all aspects of life in his ideal state - from education, sport and religion to sexual behavior, marriage and drinking parties.

In this particular reference, we have the Athenian(one of Plato's characters through which the story is told and the book is written, Plato wrote in dialogue) speaking about Cretan law, but it seems as if he isn't so much describing Cretan law as he is describing the ideals that he thinks all Grecian countries should strive for in their legislation. Crete was a country in ancient Greece, known much like the Spartans for their army and their adeptness for war.

I feel like I'm leaving something out, but I can't figure out what it is. Oh well, if I think of it I'll add it in.