Zionist Influence on American Foreign Policy

Groups like the American-Israeli Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) obviously have a large influence on American foreign policy. These types of groups are enormously powerful and have Congress tightly secured in their pockets. So tightly secured in fact, that they forced through a resolution that called on President Obama to do everything in his power to delegitimize the Goldstone report (a thorough review of Hamas and the IDF's conduct during Operation Cast Lead). Israel's conduct during this war on Gaza was horrendous. They killed hundreds upon hundreds of women and children and waged war on Gaza's infrastructure (war crimes according to anyone). The Goldstone report concluded that Israel and Hamas may be guilty of crimes against humanity. What kind of lawmakers do we have? Ones that cover up war crimes committed by friends.
This same war on Gaza (Op. Cast Lead) was reminiscent of their 2006 war on Lebanon, in which over 1200 Lebanese (mostly civilians) and 119 Israelis (mostly soldiers) died, while Lebanon's infrastructure was decimated. Also, I will never forget how Israel, in the last 24 hours of the war (when the cease-fire was known to be coming), dropped millions and millions of cluster bombs. They dropped more cluster bombs during that day then they did during the entire 34 day war. These cluster bombs have thousands of mini-bomblets that disperse over entire regions, and, according to conservative estimates, have a failure rate of at least 25%. The failed bomblets, to this day, kill unsuspecting kids playing in all kinds of places. The Israeli government has even ignored pleas from the Lebanese at the UN to provide them with a map detailing where the cluster bombs were dropped. The Israelis argue that Hamas used civilians as shields during these wars, but, in probably the most densely populated region on Earth (Gaza strip), it is hard to separate the military from the civilian infrastructure. The IDF also said the same thing about Hezbollah during their war on Lebanon, but these claims have never been proven (and if they could be proven, they would have). This is how I view it, at least. Another argument the IDF uses is the need to halt rocket fire. This point, as far as I'm concerned, is moot because of Israel's extremely disproportionate response and their propensity to launch missiles and aerial attacks before any rockets have been launched. Just look at who broke the cease-fire preceding Op. Cast Lead - Israel, in the form of a multiple ton bomb that killed 6 members of Hamas. Then, when Hamas retaliated with their measly rocket-fire (which rarely injure, let alone kill, a civilian. I understand they can cause psychological damage, but real American-made bombs cause BOTH), the Israelis used this as an excuse to escalate the situation by sending in their automated bull-dozing fleet, F-18s armed to the teeth with phosphorous bombs, and Merkava tanks.

The problem with the Israeli lobby is that there is no equivalent counter to their influence. No powerful Palestinian/Arab lobbies have emerged and the result has been a completely one sided mediator to the Israeli Palestinian conflict. President Obama is being a little more even-handed then any other president in recent history by demanding a freeze to all settlements. Even though the Israelis haven't complied, President Obama is trying to draw a hard line. Without the dismantling of all these illegal settlements, there will never be peace. These land grabs infuriate and humiliate the Palestinians, and it will only result in a third uprising.

The problem in the Middle East is the lack of an unbiased mediator - a result of the Israeli lobby. I believe the extremely influential Israeli lobby must be done away with for a just and lasting peace to occur in the Holy Land. What do you think?

Well, I personally agree with most of what you say. Israeli settlement activity definitely has to stop (and existing illegitimate settlements need to be removed), because that activity exacerbates Palestinian resentment and makes future conflict more likely. There will never be peace there as long as Israeli settlement activity continues. I'm glad the Obama administration has been vocal about that issue... not that the Israelis will pay much attention, though. We are still supporting them militarily.

I also agree that there is a US double-standard when it comes to war crimes, and that we tend to overlook certain conduct by the IDF that we would condemn if it came from someone else. Obviously the IDF does have a responsibility to protect Israel's own citizenry but their heavy-handedness also exacerbates the conflict rather than resolving it.

I think it may be going a little far to say that AIPAC has congress "tightly in it's pocket", though. They definitely exercise considerable influence but ultimately American support for Israel rests on our strategic interests--AIPAC is able to exert it's influence because those interests exist.

What strategic interests? How does America benefit by our relationship with Israel? We wouldn't be hated throughout the Arab world if we didn't have this relationship. Our status would also soar in tons of other countries who view Israel as the 'exception' to international law. Is it that Israeli intelligence agencies provide us with information? Well that is nice, but I'm sure it would be more beneficial to find allies in a multitude of Arab intelligence agencies, instead of enemies. This is besides the fact that if Israel wasn't a war mongering state that creates enemies for the US to deal with, the US would not have any military use for intelligence documents. I believe the military and financial aid America provides Israel with will have its consequences sooner or later.

Right, I can see that I was a bit unclear. I should have said "perceived interests" rather than simply "interests". I agree that American support for Israel has often done us more harm than good, and is arguably NOT in our best interests at all, for exactly the reasons you give. But the fact remains that American foreign policy has traditionally perceived Israel as an important ally in the region, for a variety of reasons.

I'm not saying it's entirely rational, or that it's the best possible arrangement, or that it isn't myopic and counterproductive in some ways. I'm definitely not saying that American policy towards Israel is necessarily justified in light of our interests, because again, just the opposite may be true. What I am saying is that it's a bit unrealistic to blame America's policy towards Israel on the "Israel lobby" (AIPAC etc.); the Israel lobby wouldn't have any influence to exert in the first place if traditional American foreign policy perceptions (and public perceptions) of Israel weren't what they are. Of course to some degree the Israel lobby has helped created those perceptions, but I think their role has been small in comparison to other factors.

Also, bear in mind that most of the Arab states--with the exceptions of Syria and Libya--are already de facto US allies (and in the case of those two, reducing ties with Israel isn't necessarily going to turn them into our friends). It's not like Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, etc. are currently refusing to cooperate with us because of our support for Israel. They definitely aren't our enemies. Again, I agree with your overall point--that it would be beneficial for us to reduce/conditionalize support for Israel and cultivate better relations with the Muslim world--but your suggestion that the Arab governments and intelligence services are our 'enemies' is mostly incorrect.

EDIT: As for the consequences of US military/financial support for Israel, I think it's inaccurate to say that they "will" come "sooner or later"; they have already come, and they are still coming today, and we have been suffering for them from a while now! They could definitely intensify in the future, though.

Americans see Israel as an important ally in the region largely because of the Israeli lobby. When the vast majority of congress, a group of corrupt lawmakers Americans would like to revere, views Israel as our 'stalwart' ally, civilians will follow suit; this is mainly because there is not enough information out there on what is really going on in the occupied Palestinian territories to counter.

The Israeli lobby comes in many different forms. Two academics, Stephen Walt of Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government and John Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago, published a paper calling the lobby "mysteriously large, including everything from Washington think-tanks, New York newspapers, and websites, to traditional lobby groups such as the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC)" http://www.meforum.org/1004/how-important-is-the-israel-lobby. The media has a ridiculous amount of influence on America's worker bees and people who don't think for themselves. Even for someone who does, it can be easy to lose perspective of the situation when watching American mainstream media. For example, it was never made clear that Israel in fact broke the ceasefire which lead to Operation Cast Lead in 2006. You would never know from watching ABC, Fox, CNN, or NBC that Israel assassinated Hamas officials, during a ceasefire, prior to any rockets being fired. This is an epitomic example because of the tons of cases where news outlets neglect extremely important information necessary to understanding the conflict. Hamas's pathetic rockets are always made out as instigations, while Israel's massive US supplied white phosphorous bombs and automated bulldozing fleet (designed to destroy neighborhoods) are retaliations. I believe this is largely due to the influence of the Israeli lobby on American media.

And I agree with you that most Arab states are our allies. But most of these are corrupt regimes who are disliked by their people. Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia are our allies becuase of the massive amounts of monetary aid we supply them with (nothing compared to Israel, of course). These three regimes are authoritarian and corrupt in many cases, but the U.S. turns a blind eye because they do what we say. It is the Arab people, the civilians who live under these oppressive regimes, that hate American influence in the Middle East. So I guess it comes down to whether freedom and democracy are true American ideals that should be spread or not.

And I suppose you are right, some consequences have arrived for America and Israel, but not nearly enough to make them stop. There is no doubt America's aid to Israel was in part a motive for 9/11, but nobody ever talks about that.

So you're saying Hamas committed less war crimes than Israel?
lol.

That is exactly what I'm saying and I challenge you to prove otherwise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mrbazoun

That is exactly what I'm saying and I challenge you to prove otherwise.

---

1. I don't feed trolls.
2. "Burden of proof falls on the accuser."
(Also, biased anti-israel sources DO NOT COUNT.)

But biased pro-israel sources do?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darth Vader

1. I don't feed trolls.
2. "Burden of proof falls on the accuser."
(Also, biased anti-israel sources DO NOT COUNT.)

---

1. there is no trolling in this thread and only a fool thinks there is
2. you are the accuser in this case. mrbazoun has laid out his arguments and his points intelligently and logically and has already engaged in conversation with someone in a civilized manner, which is a sharp contrast to your own posting.

so, what you should do is say 'wait are you telling me that hamas has done less than israel? that's bullshit and here's why: blah blah blah'

otherwise you aren't contributing to the thread at all, just causing contention for no reason whatsoever. don't do that.

The IDF has certainly killed more Palestinian civilians than Hamas has killed Israeli civilians (or civilians and soldiers combined); the IDF has also caused far more damage to Palestinian residential areas, infrastructure, etc. than Hamas has caused to the same things in Israel. Israel also continues settlement in the occupied territories, which is a violation of Article 49 of the Geneva Conventions on the conduct of warfare (population transfer into occupied territories). Their control of the flow of goods into Gaza also causes massive human suffering, certainly much more than anything caused in Israel by the actions of Hamas.

I'm not pro-Hamas--just the opposite really--nor would I describe myself as anti-Israel (I just think they need to act differently in many ways). I'm not saying that Israel is "more evil" than Hamas or anything like that. But Israeli political power over Palestinians, as well as their technological/military superiority over the Palestinians, has allowed them to inflict far more destruction and suffering on the Palestinians (much of which could be called war crimes) than the Palestinians have ever inflicted on them.

ITT it's politically popular to sympathize with terror based organizations because it's the non conformist thing to do.

modedit: because they examined the situation and discovered disparities in the generalizations made of both parties, and clearly we should not examine generalities because they are totally true all the way through, that's why they come about, right?

please attempt reading the thread all the way through before trying to drop a oneliner attempting to show your own crouching idiocy hidden intellectualism.

ITT davidsdivad accuses Israel's critics of sympathizing with terrorists because it's the easy thing to do and doesn't require him to understand what anyone ITT has actually said.

ITT we get butthurt over srs business on Casual motherfucking Discourse . com.


Why don't you post join a Facebook cause while you're at it?

user was warned for this post

seriously, it's not about getting butthurt or how seriously people take a website, the fact is this forum is for discussion of a topic. You aren't adding to the conversation, you're detracting from it with pointless lines attempting to show yourself as being knowledgeable about the subject when you're using the equivalent of urban legends to defend your standpoint.

If you think a viewpoint is stupid, then you have to explain yourself the same as anyone else who posts their opinion in AI.

Unless you're funny. You're not funny.

If you want to know the attitude of the forum and what few posts have crossed the line (this is the second, I'm pretty sure, and I'm also pretty sure we've only had to talk about this to maybe 3 posters), then read the rest of the forums before you participate in them. This is forum ettiquette anywhere on the internet.

Alternatively, make a thread in flames and bitch away.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DAVIDSDIVAD

ITT we get butthurt over srs business on Casual motherfucking Discourse . com.


Why don't you post join a Facebook cause while you're at it?

---

Wow, today you learned that the presence of the word "casual" in the URL does not mean that every thread in every forum on this website is a venue for your shitty attempts at one-liners. Read a forum's posting guidelines before you post. AI is not the place for your nonsense. There are like 20 other forums on CD if you are looking for someplace to clown around. Don't post in AI again unless you have something useful to say.

I'd much prefer he didn't post at all.

I would like to see an advocate of Israeli policy or Zionist (these two really are one in the same) argue their point of view. It seems only the dumb ones are here, that's why all they have are one-liners with no content. Maybe the argument for Israel just can't be made with all the facts; this can't always be true though, just look at Alan Dershowitz, the master of putting a spin on things.

It depends on what exactly you mean by an "argument for Israel", I guess. But I'd agree that it is essentially impossible for an objective observer to argue that Israel isn't guilty of war crimes as well as of other illegal activities (e.g. settlements). A broader "argument for Israel" (i.e. it's existence as a state, etc.) is probably more feasible although plenty of people will disagree with such an argument.

I don't think that it's entirely fair to say that a Zionist is the same thing as an advocate of Israeli policy, though. A Zionist is, in pure terms, someone who supports the continued existence of Israel. I think someone can be a Zionist, in that basic sense, while not necessarily being an advocate of Israeli policies. There are certainly plenty of people today who meet that basic definition of "a Zionist" while remaining critical of many Israeli policies.

I suppose that is true regarding the difference between a Zionist and an advocate of Israeli policy. Thank you for the correction. And by argument for Israel I mean the official Israeli government position.

mrbazoun is correct. I don't believe in a Zionist lobby controlling the US government itself, but it's influential because it has allowed itself to be and because Israel presents itself as a "civilized" country in a "sea of America-hating dictatorships who only want to massacre Jews and eat their babies and then unite so that they may destroy humankind as we know it." Christians also sympathize with Israel due to its anti-Islamic bent.

Before that it was pretty much "These Arabs are Commies, so the US is fighting Communism."

Quote:

---

So you're saying Hamas committed less war crimes than Israel?

---

Israelis seek to preserve their colonialist position at the expense of the Palestinian people. If the Palestinians knock off Israelis, it is done for the same reason that African anti-colonialists knocked off Europeans who sought to exploit them and their land. If the Jews were forced into poverty and lived as second-class citizens exploited by Palestinians then I'll consider sympathy for them.

I don't know the level of "Zionist influence," but the view that Israel can do no wrong has become the default one in the American psyche.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jack burden

I don't know the level of "Zionist influence," but the view that Israel can do no wrong has become the default one in the American psyche.

---

You mean in the American right. Certainly not the left.

If you want to talk about "the American psyche" (as if there were such a thing in your increasingly polarised country), then maybe it would be more accurate to say that it has become the default position to view Israel as the troubled good guys surrounded by turban-wearing bad guys. That's a far cry from "can do no wrong".

The left is equally as fanatic in its support of Israel as the right is. The stupidity of our congressmen and women transcends party lines.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mrbazoun

The left is equally as fanatic in its support of Israel as the right is.

---

...What?

That's... that's not even remotely true. It could be I'm massively misinformed about the American left, but at the very least the Australian left has made its quite anti-Israel position clear.

By the way, I'm talking about "the left" as in the beliefs held by the people on the left, not the politicians who happen to wear blue ties. But like I said, it would take a whole lot of pretty convincing evidence to get anywhere with the claim "the left is equally as fanatic in its support of Israel as the right is".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gwahir

You mean in the American right. Certainly not the left.

If you want to talk about "the American psyche" (as if there were such a thing in your increasingly polarised country), then maybe it would be more accurate to say that it has become the default position to view Israel as the troubled good guys surrounded by turban-wearing bad guys. That's a far cry from "can do no wrong".

---

Even among many on the left it is becoming the default view. They feel like not supporting Israel and Zionism will discredit them.

Americans on the left--i.e. with liberal political beliefs--are much more likely to be critical of Israeli behavior than Americans on the right. Democrats in Congress are a different story, but gwahir is certainly right about Americans on the left.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jack burden

Even among many on the left it is becoming the default view. They feel like not supporting Israel and Zionism will discredit them.

---

Is this really true? It's worrying if it is, but I'll need more than just you saying it's the case to believe it. The more critical America (especially a favourable American government, like Obama's) is of Israel, the more likely they are to start acting responsibly and decently.

Oh those virtuous lefties, eh?

Most of the US "left" is supportive of Israel for the most part, with some apprehensions due to its treatment of Palestinians (which said "left" then tries to justify because "hurr terrorism").

It depends what you mean by the "left" though. As said, the "left" (Democrats) are pro-Israel. Some advocate a two-state solution.

If you want to talk about the manly Left though (read: Communism) then yeah, fuck Israel.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gwahir

...What?

That's... that's not even remotely true. It could be I'm massively misinformed about the American left, but at the very least the Australian left has made its quite anti-Israel position clear.

---

I meant to refer to Congress and other high-level politicians with rare exceptions.

What makes you guys think that "the left" in America means "Democrats", let alone "Democratic members of the US Congress"?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Syme

What makes you guys think that "the left" in America means "Democrats", let alone "Democratic members of the US Congress"?

---

Right.

I mean, exactly.

Some Democrats are even self-proclaimed "conservatives."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Dog_Coalition

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Syme

What makes you guys think that "the left" in America means "Democrats", let alone "Democratic members of the US Congress"?

---

Well I said the left, not Democrats, but when I said the left I was referring to Democrat high level politicians and members of congress. I guess nobody likes to count the progressives/lbgt activists/anti-war crowd. They, for the most part, usually have pretty good ideas about how to pacify the holy land.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mrbazoun

Well I said the left, not Democrats, but when I said the left I was referring to Democrat high level politicians and members of congress.

---

Right, and what I was saying is, those people probably shouldn't be referred to as "the left". Because.... that's not really what "the left" means. So calling those people "the left" is a recipe for confusion. Hence gwahir's response, for instance. Since you said "the left", he (and others) assumed you meant the actual political left wing in America, not high-ranking Democrats.

Yeah frankly the far extremity of the "left" section of the U.S. Congress is generally considered to begin roughly where the rest of the world starts it's political centre-right-wing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gwahir

Is this really true? It's worrying if it is, but I'll need more than just you saying it's the case to believe it. The more critical America (especially a favourable American government, like Obama's) is of Israel, the more likely they are to start acting responsibly and decently.

---

Here is more than just him saying it. This is a link to Gallup polls conducted on Americans from 1967 all the way to 2009. Gallup Poll results of the most consistently asked question regarding American public attitudes toward the Middle East: “In the Middle East situation, are your sympathies more with Israel or with the Arab nations?” (Note that from 1993-2009 the question was asked about Palestinian Arabs, not Arab nations). It's a shame the Palestinians pay so dearly for not being organized/wealthy/well-connected/unified enough to set up a comparable lobby of their own. It's also a shame that this is what they'd need to do in order to be treated fairly.

If it weren't for America's middle east policy, I'd be our most patriotic citizen. Instead, I find myself hating my country. I suppose I need to realize it is the lobby/congressmen, not the people, and do something about it.

EDIT: Here's some more saddening Gallup poll results: http://www.gallup.com/poll/1639/Middle-East.aspx

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrShrike

Yeah frankly the far extremity of the "left" section of the U.S. Congress is generally considered to begin roughly where the rest of the world starts it's political centre-right-wing.

---

Well good. Do you have any idea how annoying proper lefties are?

Michael Moore is mild in comparison.

Totally.

Which is why all the bitching and moaning about the left in the U.S. and comparisons of democrats with Stalin etc etc etc makes me guffaw. They wouldn't know a lefty if they were born cack-handed.