Ban on veils

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At least two women have been briefly detained in France while wearing Islamic veils, after a law banning the garment in public came into force.

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13031397

Now I've never been overly religious, so I'm not sure where I stand on this.

(I'm not muslim, so my view is from the outside.)

I head someone on the radio saying that this was a good way to make sure we don't have terrorists among us.

Now while I said I don't know what to think, I at least know the previous statement may be a little extreme.

What do you guys think?

I saw this on the news this evening, I did also think wtf, but I can see how it might be a security issue.
I'm not sure what I think about this, both sides have valid points.

No, both sides don't have valid points. It is blatant discrimination on the part of the French government. Wearing a veil doesn't make you a terrorist, and stealing from Muslims their right to religious expression is probably more likely to provoke terrorism than to prevent it. If people were banned from wearing Christian crosses the French people would be in an uproar, but because of intolerance directed towards and xenophobia related to innocent Muslims they are forced to forsake their religion or gtfo and the majority doesn't even bat an eye at the injustice.

It sucks, and I don't like it.

arresting someone for wearing a veil is just as oppressive as arresting someone for not wearing one

Mr.E wraps it up. /thread

I agree with mr e but I can also see how it might be an issue of public safety. I'm not saying at all that banning burkas mean all muslims are terrorists, just that the fact they can't be identified in public could be seen as an issue of public safety.
It's the same reason people get asked to take their hoods or hats off in a shop with cctv (happens to me constantly) or to remove their face scarves at a demonstration.

I'm not sure which side I agree with more.
I guess the muslim side since I'm general of the 'fuck the man' opinion, but I can see their logic in this case...

There was a great debate in The Guardian about this issue a few weeks ago that totally did not help me make up my mind which side of the fence I fall on. As a social libertarian I tend to agree with the Muslim side of the argument.

I think it's pretty obvious that "security risks" argument is just a veil to cover up the real issue of religious discrimination.

See Ghassan Hage, Paranoid Nationalism

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ai-brown-burqa

The article I mentioned earlier

I doubt there has been one terrorist attack in France that has been facilitated by a woman wearing a veil. Prove me wrong.

While I generally question the motives, you do realize that the difference between the Christian cross and a Muslim veil is that expression of the cross doesn't preclude public identification.

That said, there are lots of other legal ways to hide one's identity (halloween masks, ski masks, sunglasses/hats, etc.) The French government is just targeting Muslims.

Frankly, they ought to ban it in public for so lacking style.

Okay I am not going to do any quoting because most people are basically saying the same thing, i.e. "this is bad because it discriminates against muslims". I argue this isn't necessarily a bad thing (read: is a good idea) and will probably be called a racist/inbred/asshole/whatever for it, suck my dick.

The argument for France can really be made quiet simply, as Sarkozy put it: "In our country, we cannot accept that women be prisoners behind a screen, cut off from all social life, deprived of all identity". The choice of a religion by a person is rarely a choice at all. These women are born into Islam (whether in France or later coming to France as immigrants or seeking asylum from their shit Muslim dictators/governments), into tight-nit families and communities (who often don't integrate into white European society which is part of the less-altruistic motivation for these laws) who would disown them if they rejected Islam. This law will likely free many women from a symbol of repression and subjugation which simply doesn't belong in a modern-day western nation. Or, they'll simply be required not to leave home (i.e., enter public grounds) and their captors will hopefully be arrested for kidnapping and domestic abuse, or whatever the French equivalent is.

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Originally Posted by mrbazoun

I doubt there has been one terrorist attack in France that has been facilitated by a woman wearing a veil. Prove me wrong.

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Laws restricting facial coverings to things like Halloween and safety requirements (like motorcycle helmets) aren't meant to deter terrorism, an extremely rare crime (or family of crimes). It's meant to keep people identified for any number of reasons, from victims and witnesses being able to identify potential perps to police being able to identify potential witnesses. If a police force (and therefore society) is to function well, its members must be at least somewhat identifiable, and full-body coverings totally preclude this. If you get robbed in some Paris suburb, do you want the only potential witnesses to be a bunch of fully-covered women? I'd much rather be able to identify one.

Also, nice straw man.

Sponge, we all hate the way muslim women have to dress/are treated in general. I'd like to see them in hot pants too. You can just tell they are sexy from the mono-brow you can see through the veil. However that is totally not the point. If people wish to isolate themselves and practise certain beliefs and wear stupid shit they should be entitled to.

If you were to ban that behaviour you'd have to ban communes etc. and create a national uniform. This law isn't going to liberate anyone.

I do like the idea though. I just think it is incredibly far fetched and ultimately a ridiculous way of justifying the legislation.

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Originally Posted by Atmoscheer

While I generally question the motives, you do realize that the difference between the Christian cross and a Muslim veil is that expression of the cross doesn't preclude public identification.

That said, there are lots of other legal ways to hide one's identity (halloween masks, ski masks, sunglasses/hats, etc.) The French government is just targeting Muslims.

Frankly, they ought to ban it in public for so lacking style.

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I used it for emphasis, I know it is not a perfect comparison.

But to sponge, I don't think you're being racist, but I do think you're trivializing Islam a little bit. To say that these women are forced to be Muslim and if they were more "integrate(d) into white European society" they would not want to follow the beliefs of Islam is not only naive, but also completely unable to be substantiated. There are plenty of religious people all over the world who have been exposed to people and cultures that did not believe or even tolerate their faith and generally that doesn't really stop them from believing what they want to believe and following their faith how they see fit.

What I would want to know is how many documented incidences are there of Muslim veils causing any sort of problem as it relates to the identification of the person underneath. Was there a rash of robberies by women in hijabs? Did somebody get killed in front of a group of covered Muslim women who then scattered, never to be found? Or is it what I interpret it to be: a xenophobic piece of legislation meant to target an unpopular minority in France.

Arguments in favor of it just don't hold up. The most recent estimate I can find has around 4.7 million Muslims in France as of 2010, about 7% of the French population. In 2000 a study showed that only 36% of Muslims in France were observant. Assuming statistics hold that means that saying 4% of Muslims in France are observant is being generous. Cut out half of those as men and we're talking 2% of the population. Also, if we are to use sponge's logic, they do not much associate with the people around them and generally keep to themselves. So the argument is that, in order to protect the general welfare from the ramifications of not being able to identify instantly and on sight 2% of the population, all of whom are female, who don't generally associate with the rest of the population and who come from a generally peaceful and cooperative faith, France must discriminate against their closely held religious beliefs?

I'm not buying it.

There was some woman on the bbc news the other night saying that actaully the majority of french muslims are in fact wearing it out of choice and to make it illegal like this is in fact going to make more women want to wear one out of a sense of rebellion.

if we ignore the idea that people will begin to wear it out of rebellion and look at the cause of the argument, then its obvious to me that it is a blatant discrimination by the french government using the idea of security as an excuse and have people like sponge to thank for taking their law to an extreme.

the hijab or any veil is not a symbol of repression. it is in fact the complete opposite. in traditional islam, the outside world is a space for men, and women are forced to be inside, hidden away. veils are a way for a woman to be in the outside world whilst still feeling and being seen as inside (See Leila Hessini, Wearing the Hijab in Contemporary Morroco:Choice and Identity). they have the security of being protected from sexual advances and impurity (as they see it) without being subjected to a completely restricted lifstyle.

Sponge, you are not actually arguing that the women are not being given their rights. you are essentially complaining that it infringes on your rights as a "free" westerner to see somebody of a different culture treated differently.

It is a method which could be seen to have been used for western dominance. "...in their focus upon the veil as the symbol of Islamic backwardness and primitivism, Western colonisers effectively defined the terms of subsequent debates about women and the veil so that it became charged with issues of culture and nationalism and locked into an opposition between "Western" and "indigenous" or "authentic" values." (Claire Dwyer, Veiled Meanings: young British Muslim women and the negotiation of differences. pg 8)

we could go your way sponge, or we could at least try to avoid cultural bankruptcy,

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Originally Posted by sailor jack

I STUDY CULTURAL CRITICISM

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Dude, I already covered this with my hot pants argument.

rep'd

Yes, I personally think it's a wonderful idea for governments to stipulate dress codes.

That's not dodgy at all :]