Its a catastrophe for the apostrophe in Britain

[Ein Sof]

LONDON – On the streets of Birmingham, the queen's English is now the queens English.

England's second-largest city has decided to drop apostrophes from all its street signs, saying they're confusing and old-fashioned.

But some purists are downright possessive about the punctuation mark.

It seems that Birmingham officials have been taking a hammer to grammar for years, quietly dropping apostrophes from street signs since the 1950s. Through the decades, residents have frequently launched spirited campaigns to restore the missing punctuation to signs denoting such places as "St. Pauls Square" or "Acocks Green."

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[djwolford]

Way to slaughter the English language a little bit at a time, England.

[Ein Sof]

!

[Atmosfear]

I mean we figure it out from context while speaking, couldn't we figure it out from context while reading?

I prefer apostrophes, but oh well. How much is this little endeavor into language revision costing them?

[Mach 5]

Its our language and we'll do what we want with it.

Doesnt change the fact that its a retarded idea.

[Killuminati]

Way to slaughter the English language a little bit at a time, England.

[Pepsi]

I never thought I'd see the day where England truly starts to suck.

[sycld]

I read that England is doing stupid shit to mangle its own language's grammar like this. It's hard to stomach that the English are worse than Americans when it comes to their own language, since Americans are bad enough.

I mean, seriously: the apostrophe is the single fucking easiest grammatical device in the language. Whats more, it is necessary to use it sometimes to make clear otherwise ambiguous sentences and signs. If you can't use an apostrophe properly, you're a moran.

[Pepsi]

Next up: The Semicolon.

[simonj]

I read that England is doing stupid shit to mangle its own language's grammar like this. It's hard to stomach that the English are worse than Americans when it comes to their own language, since Americans are bad enough.

I mean, seriously: the apostrophe is the single fucking easiest grammatical device in the language. Whats more, it is necessary to use it sometimes to make clear otherwise ambiguous sentences and signs. If you can't use an apostrophe properly, you're a moran.

I had a teacher once who was a Paul Moran. Might have been Steve Moran. Anywho, he's dead now.

The single most important thing my English teacher taught me is that you can't actually get English wrong. It's an open language and, as such, is subject to change (as it does, constantly).

Anyway, the point of this is that the apostrophes are being dropped where they are part of place names. Personally I'm not too fussed if St Paul's Cathedral becomes St Pauls Cathedral. Anyway, it's not like we haven't had street names Gropecunt Lane - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Magpie_lane.jpg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/Magpie_lane.jpg/200px-Magpie_lane.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/0/0f/Magpie_lane.jpg/200px-Magpie_lane.jpg before.

[MrTroy]

More importantly, they confuse people. If I want to go to a restaurant, I don't want to have an A-level (high school diploma) in English to find it.

If you are an adult and don't have a high school diploma you don't deserve to eat at a restaurant. Way to attempt to lower standards... yay!

[Atmosfear]

Next up: The Semicolon.

Don't you dare

[ShitFace]

Well this is retarded.
The more they get rid of the use of it, the less people will get used to seeing it and know how to use it correctly.

Yeah, way to make things even more confusing. Retards.

[djwolford]

If you are an adult and don't have a high school diploma you don't deserve to eat at a restaurant. Way to attempt to lower standards... yay!

Well it generally doesn't even take a high school diploma to understand an apostrophe either. I mean that's second grade material isn't it?

[MrTroy]

Well it generally doesn't even take a high school diploma to understand an apostrophe either. I mean that's second grade material isn't it?

Yea, no shit... the apostrophe is definitely elementary school subject matter.

[sycld]

And the rules for the apostrophe are invariant and require no finesse, unlike other grammatical devices...

I had a teacher once who was a Paul Moran. Might have been Steve Moran. Anywho, he's dead now.

The single most important thing my English teacher taught me is that you can't actually get English wrong. It's an open language and, as such, is subject to change (as it does, constantly).

What the fuck are you talking about? English is subject to change, but it is not an "open language," whatever the fuck that means. Your teacher sounds like one of the stupid idiots that are fostering the mindset that's bringing about inane revisions like this.

Also, change is generally very slow, for good reason. Devices like apostrophes, commas, and the like exist to clarify the meaning of sentences and to lift syntactical ambiguities. Suddenly do away with any grammatical rule, and you're setting yourself up for the danger of doing away with the clarity that such a rule lent to the written word.

I mean, yes: unlike in, say, eating, I will not die if don't follow the rules of English, and I can still function as a human being. I also won't be arrested and thrown in jail, nor will I become a social pariah (though I would advocate this punishment!). However, that doesn't mean that it's an intelligent thing to do...

Anyway, the point of this is that the apostrophes are being dropped where they are part of place names. Personally I'm not too fussed if St Paul's Cathedral becomes St Pauls Cathedral. Anyway, it's not like we haven't had street names modernized slightly before.

The example you provided, while hilarious, still doesn't justify getting rid of a grammatical device altogether. Yes, many place names don't use apostrophes, and in this case it is probably less important. However, this city's officials are speaking as though the apostrophe should be abolished from the English language, which is a terrible idea.

[simonj]

What the fuck are you talking about? English is subject to change, but it is not an "open language," whatever the fuck that means. Your teacher sounds like one of the stupid idiots that are fostering the mindset that's bringing about inane revisions like this.

Also, change is generally very slow, for good reason. Devices like apostrophes, commas, and the like exist to clarify the meaning of sentences and to lift syntactical ambiguities. Suddenly do away with any grammatical rule, and you're setting yourself up for the danger of doing away with the clarity that such a rule lent to the written word.

No, change is traditionally very slow, for valid reasons. With the advent of technology and it's influences on language then changes are happening much faster than previously. There's not really any way to stop that so it's probably better to embrace it and add your own influence to it.

I mean, yes: unlike in, say, eating, I will not die if don't follow the rules of English, and I can still function as a human being. I also won't be arrested and thrown in jail, nor will I become a social pariah (though I would advocate this punishment!). However, that doesn't mean that it's an intelligent thing to do...

The example you provided, while hilarious, still doesn't justify getting rid of a grammatical device altogether. Yes, many place names don't use apostrophes, and in this case it is probably less important. However, this city's officials are speaking as though the apostrophe should be abolished from the English language, which is a terrible idea.

And here is the important distinction: it is indeed a terrible idea and I don't believe for a minute that any city officials believe it's a great idea to get rid of apostrophes permanently. The article does make it sound that way though, but news articles like this usually need some sort of an angle and these guys took the "omgosh their ruining the langwige!" approach.

[sycld]

No, change is traditionally very slow, for valid reasons. With the advent of technology and it's influences on language then changes are happening much faster than previously. There's not really any way to stop that so it's probably better to embrace it and add your own influence to it.

Yes, and the destruction of the English language by Internet-speak is also ruining people's ability to express themselves clearly and precisely, and consequently their ability to think clearly and precisely. For a short text message, sometimes you might have to type "hey were r u" since you want to express yourself quickly and without fussing too much with the numerical keypad on your cell phone. However, if that's the only way you know how to write, good luck expressing a complex and nuanced argument in a five-page long essay.

So, no, I am not going to embrace the way technology is changing language. I am not going to accept the presence of emoticons in letters, I am not going to rejoice over the shrinking vocabulary of English speakers, and I am not going to celebrate the growing inability to use simple yet crucial clarifying grammatical devices in formal writing.

Also, "it's" means "it is," and "its" means "belonging to it."

And here is the important distinction: it is indeed a terrible idea and I don't believe for a minute that any city officials believe it's a great idea to get rid of apostrophes permanently. The article does make it sound that way though, but news articles like this usually need some sort of an angle and these guys took the "omgosh their ruining the langwige!" approach.

This is often the case. I will also admit that the inclusion or omission of apostrophes in British place names is rather capricious and arbitrarily set by tradition rather than any generally applicable rule.

However, one city official is quoted as saying, "More importantly, they [apostrophes] confuse people. If I want to go to a restaurant, I don't want to have an A-level (high school diploma) in English to find it." He's speaking as if apostrophes are some esoteric device known only to the most highly educated and gifted people of the population. They shouldn't be.

[simonj]

Yes, and the destruction of the English language by Internet-speak is also ruining people's ability to express themselves clearly and precisely, and consequently their ability to think clearly and precisely. For a short text message, sometimes you might have to type "hey were r u" since you want to express yourself quickly and without fussing too much with the numerical keypad on your cell phone. However, if that's the only way you know how to write, good luck expressing a complex and nuanced argument in a five-page long essay.

So, no, I am not going to embrace the way technology is changing language. I am not going to accept the presence of emoticons in letters, I am not going to rejoice over the shrinking vocabulary of English speakers, and I am not going to celebrate the growing inability to use simple yet crucial clarifying grammatical devices in formal writing.

Well, neither am I really. I'm meticulous with spelling and grammar even in text messages and IMs and I know plenty of people who feel the same way. The beauty of language is that it is the root of knowledge and the cornerstone of our society. Yes, the decline of the English language is unfortunate, but not too consequential. Intellectualism will remain an integral part of society because society is so dependant on it.

Really, I agree with you on pretty much all these topics, I've just started down the wrong road but have no intention of turning back...

Also, "it's" means "it is," and "its" means "belonging to it."

I know, that was an accident. Should not type AI answers while talking to someone about food while I'm hungry.

This is often the case. I will also admit that the inclusion or omission of apostrophes in British place names is rather capricious and arbitrarily set by tradition rather than any generally applicable rule.

However, one city official is quoted as saying, "More importantly, they [apostrophes] confuse people. If I want to go to a restaurant, I don't want to have an A-level (high school diploma) in English to find it." He's speaking as if apostrophes are some esoteric device known only to the most highly educated and gifted people of the population. They shouldn't be.

I missed that part really. I agree. What a twat. It doesn't surprise me though, considering the mayor of London is someone who got elected on the grounds that he's been an idiot on some comedy programmes a few times.

[Who]

I mean, seriously: the apostrophe is the single fucking easiest grammatical device in the language. Whats more, it is necessary to use it sometimes to make clear otherwise ambiguous sentences and signs. If you can't use an apostrophe properly, you're a moran.

I just felt the need to point this out.

[simonj]

Nicely pedantic.

[Pepsi]

Don't you dare

I hope it doesn't happen...but it might.

[MrShrike]

I just felt the need to point this out.

I was just thinking to myself what a Moran sycld must be.

[KT.]

I don't understand how an apostrophe is confusing. The British are just getting lazy.

But some purists are downright possessive about the punctuation mark.

lol I like this pun.

[Dr. Baltar]

Now this, this is so ironic from my perspective.

[simonj]

At least nowhere here changed the word 'hello' to 'heaveno' because 'hello' is too evil.

[simonj]

Also whoever negarepped me with "Go to hello you fucking dumbass." really deserves some +reppin.

[Pepsi]

Also whoever negarepped me with "Go to hello you fucking dumbass." really deserves some +reppin.

[gismo]

Lol, don't worry, it is just the Brummies. They are slow.

[sycld]

I was just thinking to myself what a Moran sycld must be.

Whoa? Uh....uh-oh.... I r moran halp