Gun-loving pastor to his flock: Piece be with you

**fm2176** · 06-06-2009, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by DYLAN T. LOVAN
Associated Press Writer

LOUISVILLE, Ky. (AP) -- A Kentucky pastor is inviting his flock to bring guns to church to celebrate the Fourth of July and the Second Amendment.

New Bethel Church is welcoming "responsible handgun owners" to wear their firearms inside the church June 27, a Saturday. An ad says there will be a handgun raffle, patriotic music and information on gun safety.

"We're just going to celebrate the upcoming theme of the birth of our nation," said pastor Ken Pagano. "And we're not ashamed to say that there was a strong belief in God and firearms - without that this country wouldn't be here."

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**crunker** · 06-08-2009, 12:29 AM

Looks like Hussein-O's right, they are clinging to their religion and guns.

**solecistic** · 06-08-2009, 12:34 AM

That is hilarious, sad, and disturbing. All at once.

**fm2176** · 06-09-2009, 07:44 AM

Funny thing is, churches are one of the off-limits places for concealed carry, at least in KY and VA.

**Anonymous D** · 06-09-2009, 12:04 PM

Same here.

**Killuminati** · 06-09-2009, 12:06 PM

I'm not really sure what to think about this.

**sycld** · 06-09-2009, 03:35 PM

Well, what do you think about this fm2176?

Let's put the issue of gun rights aside for a second. This is still rather strange. What exactly does Christianity have to do with the rather practical and areligious issue of the right to defend oneself with a concealed weapon? It's so wierd how issues like gun rights get conflated with religion in this country.

**Killuminati** · 06-09-2009, 03:48 PM

Yea wait why are they doing this at a church? Can't they go to a park or something for their raffle? I mean this kind of activity isn't teaching anyone about Christianity and its principles, it just brings a bunch of guns into a church. Take that shit elsewhere.

**Syme** · 06-09-2009, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by Killuminati

Yea wait why are they doing this at a church? Can't they go to a park or something for their raffle? I mean this kind of activity isn't teaching anyone about Christianity and its principles, it just brings a bunch of guns into a church. Take that shit elsewhere.

??? I agree that it seems totally unconnected to any kind of religious belief, but why are you telling them to take it elsewhere, as if they're violating some kind of rule about what is or isn't okay in church? Shouldn't the pastor of the church in question, and the congregants, be the ones who get to decide what happens in their church? It's not like they're coming into your church and waving guns around when you don't want them there. These people can have their event at their church instead of a park if they want to, it's their own business. No-one else really has any grounds to get huffy about it as far as I can see. Just don't go that church if you don't like it.

Originally Posted by sycld

Let's put the issue of gun rights aside for a second. This is still rather strange. What exactly does Christianity have to do with the rather practical and areligious issue of the right to defend oneself with a concealed weapon? It's so wierd how issues like gun rights get conflated with religion in this country.

I'm not religious at all and I share your view that God and guns don't really have anything to do with each other, but I think that it's fairly easy to see how the conflation comes about if you understand how some people think about the relationship between gun ownership and America, and then between America and God. To someone who thinks that gun ownership was/is crucial to the foundation/preservation of America, and that America does or should have a particular connection to God or divine favor or what-have-you, the connection is pretty clear. It's not necessarily that they view gun rights as being directly connected to religion; but they view patriotism as going hand-in-hand with religion, and then they view gun rights as being connected to patriotism.

**Killuminati** · 06-09-2009, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by Syme

??? I agree that it seems totally unconnected to any kind of religious belief, but why are you telling them to take it elsewhere, as if they're violating some kind of rule about what is or isn't okay in church? Shouldn't the pastor of the church in question, and the congregants, be the ones who get to decide what happens in their church? It's not like they're coming into your church and waving guns around when you don't want them there. These people can have their event at their church instead of a park if they want to, it's their own business. No-one else really has any grounds to get huffy about it as far as I can see. Just don't go that church if you don't like it.

Yea after thinking about that I realized that is unfair. I just don't understand why people would ever bring guns to a religious setting. I am not religious at all but I feel like that just doesn't make much sense. Preaching non violence while inviting people to bring their guns to church.

**Syme** · 06-09-2009, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by Killuminati

Yea after thinking about that I realized that is unfair. I just don't understand why people would ever bring guns to a religious setting. I am not religious at all but I feel like that just doesn't make much sense. Preaching non violence while inviting people to bring their guns to church.

"And He [Jesus Christ] said to them, whomsoever hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one." Luke 22:36

But yeah, like I said, the connection doesn't make much sense to me either. But to a lot of people, guns are part of patriotism and patriotism is connected to religion.

**sycld** · 06-09-2009, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by Syme

I'm not religious at all and I share your view that God and guns don't really have anything to do with each other, but I think that it's fairly easy to see how the conflation comes about if you understand how some people think about the relationship between gun ownership and America, and then between America and God. To someone who thinks that gun ownership was/is crucial to the foundation/preservation of America, and that America does or should have a particular connection to God or divine favor or what-have-you, the connection is pretty clear. It's not necessarily that they view gun rights as being directly connected to religion; but they view patriotism as going hand-in-hand with religion, and then they view gun rights as being connected to patriotism.

I know everything you said in that paragraph, trust me. I was just saying I think it's strange and scary how the "Cult of America" has grown up in nutty Evangelical Fundamentalist Protestantism ("cult" used in its border and older sense here).

I also think it's scary how areligious people are willing to support political candidates that openly profess such beliefs because of other issues.

Originally Posted by Syme

"And He [Jesus Christ] said to them, whomsoever hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one." Luke 22:36

Of course, later on, Jesus did admonish Peter for cutting off the servant's ear later on, which he then miraculously healed.

I know that's not your point, but I felt the need to add that.

**Syme** · 06-09-2009, 04:44 PM

Yeah, I think the consensus among Biblical scholars is that the "sell your shirt to buy one" thing is actually supposed to have been metaphorical (i.e., it's not talking about actual swords), I just couldn't resist.

**srsinternets** · 06-09-2009, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by sycld

It's so wierd how issues like gun rights get conflated with religion in this country.

I think this unfortunately plays off the stereotype/correlation of conservatism and Christianity mended with the stereotype/correlation of conservatism and guns.

Conservatives are gun-toting rednecks.

All Christians are conservative.

All Christians are gun-toting rednecks.

Not trying to offend anyone or saying this is true. Just pointing out that the stereotypes have clashed and unfortunately melded together here.

**Nick2.1** · 06-09-2009, 05:49 PM

That's me birthday.

**Anonymous D** · 06-09-2009, 06:28 PM

I dont know if someone said this, but I beleive it is more of a political statement in response to Obamas "clinging to guns and religion" comment during the campaign.

**solecistic** · 06-09-2009, 07:19 PM

Well, that's a mature response.

**sycld** · 06-09-2009, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by srsinternets

I think this unfortunately plays off the stereotype/correlation of conservatism and Christianity mended with the stereotype/correlation of conservatism and guns.

Conservatives are gun-toting rednecks.

All Christians are conservative.

All Christians are gun-toting rednecks.

Not trying to offend anyone or saying this is true. Just pointing out that the stereotypes have clashed and unfortunately melded together here.

Is a stereotype a stereotype if it is by and large true?

"All" is a gross exaggeration, considering that around 3/4 of Americans claim to be Christian.

However, in those statements, if you replace "All" with "Most fundamental evangelical," then you are getting much, much closer to the truth.

**srsinternets** · 06-09-2009, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by sycld

Is a stereotype a stereotype if it is by and large true?

"All" is an exaggeration.

However, in those statements, if you replace "All" with "Most fundamental evangelical," then you are getting much, much closer to the truth.

Of course "all" is an exaggeration. And I never said stereotypes can't be true.

**fm2176** · 06-09-2009, 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by sycld

Well, what do you think about this fm2176?

Let's put the issue of gun rights aside for a second. This is still rather strange. What exactly does Christianity have to do with the rather practical and a religious issue of the right to defend oneself with a concealed weapon? It's so weird how issues like gun rights get conflated with religion in this country.

There will always be those who mix their religious beliefs with their ideological and political ones. I own firearms and enjoy them, but I neither consider myself Christian nor am I interested much in politics. That said, Syme brought up a great point pertaining to the congregation and pastor deciding what they will do at their place of worship.

Originally Posted by Syme

"And He [Jesus Christ] said to them, whomsoever hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one." Luke 22:36

And that is why I'm a Nudist at heart...

Originally Posted by srsinternets

I think this unfortunately plays off the stereotype/correlation of conservatism and Christianity mended with the stereotype/correlation of conservatism and guns.

Conservatives are gun-toting rednecks.

All Christians are conservative.

All Christians are gun-toting rednecks.

Not trying to offend anyone or saying this is true. Just pointing out that the stereotypes have clashed and unfortunately melded together here.

It's is funny how that works. We can expand that further by mixing in sycld's statement and adding "white males" into the stereotype. Most fundamental evangelical Christians are conservative white males who own firearms. Of course, the term "gun-toting redneck" is a good blanket cover term to be used by those who preach tolerance for everyone but practice intolerance for those with differing views.

I've toned down quite a bit over the past number of years. Thing is, I realize that taking an active interest in politics is not the best course of action for my career. Especially now that we have a person that seems to stand for many things I do not agree with as my Commander-in-Chief. I believe that these churchgoers should have the right to carry during services so long as their pastor permits it. I believe that our government has become over-inflated and lost touch with reality over the past sixty or so years and that any little thing the public can do within the law to show their support for or opposition to things they ultimately have little control over is a great thing. If I were a churchgoer and lived in the area, this little stunt might just bring the church a new member.

**sycld** · 06-09-2009, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by fm2176

There will always be those who mix their religious beliefs with their ideological and political ones. I own firearms and enjoy them, but I neither consider myself Christian nor am I interested much in politics. That said, Syme brought up a great point pertaining to the congregation and pastor deciding what they will do at their place of worship.

They can do whatever the fuck they want, just like I can call them fucking dumbasses for doing it.

...to state it bluntly.