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Thread: Girl-Friendly Home Defense

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    Senior Member srsinternets's Avatar
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    Default Girl-Friendly Home Defense

    So last night some shit went down at my apartment. We met our neighbors for the first time, and they subsequently slipped a roofie in my girlfriends friends drink. She went home, had a seizure, her boyfriend came over, knocked the douchebag out, and the cops come. Yadda yadda yadda, now my girlfriend is freaked out and thinks we need to move because shes afraid the assholes are going to come over here when we're gone and steal our shit or come over when the boys are gone and fuck with them, etc.

    Personally, I find this to be a great reason to buy a new gun!

    What do you guys recommend for a nice subcompact with decent stopping power (we don't need to maim anyone, just something to get them out in case SHTF) thats still easy to handle for a girl whos never fired a gun in her life. Yes, she will be trained to use it safely. I was thinking probably a Glock 27. They very small and would fit into her hands nicely, plus its .40 so its a happy medium. What do you guys suggest?

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    Senior Member Syme's Avatar
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    Absolutely not on that G27. The last thing you want to give to a girl who has never fired a gun before is a compact polymer-frame .40. Because of the light weight and small backstrap area together with the fairly powerful cartridge, recoil is going to be way too snappy for a first-time shooter, especially since girls tend to have slimmer wrists, and it's going to be hard for her to learn good marksmanship skills on a gun like that. Also there is just no point in getting a subcompact for home defense; even experienced shooters will shoot better on something with a properly sized grip and a longer barrel. A Glock 17/19 might be a good choice, if it fits her hand well. If not, just shop around for a reputable 9mm automatic that does (P99 is always a possibility, though a bit pricey).

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    When it comes to recommending a self-defense pistol for a lady who's never fired one, I follow two guidelines:

    1) That the gun is appealing to her. If it is "cute" it might get carried or at least raise her interest in learning how to operate it.

    2) That she is able to operate the pistol. By this I mean that she is not only physically able to operate it, but that she can do so effectively.

    Years ago I wanted to get my wife a pistol. She thought the Beretta Tomcat was cute. On a more practical note I found that she was unable to rack the slide even on my Beretta 92, making the tip-up barrel and DA/SA action appealing. Slip a round in the barrel and, if the double action pull is too stiff, simply cock it and place it on safe.

    Then there is the first concealed carry course I went to. After the classroom instruction we had to fire fifty rounds on the range. There was a couple next to me and the female was firing her Beretta Bobcat .22 quite well. The husband kept bugging her to shoot the Glock 23 he wanted her to carry and when she finally did she shot very poorly. Too much gun for her. Remember that the smaller the handgun, the more felt recoil there will be. If she is able to handle it, the Glock 27 is a fine choice; but don't discount 9mm or even a "mouse gun" caliber such as .380 or .32. I'd rather have my wife get seven rounds of .32 on a target than ten rounds of .45 off one. Also take into consideration whether it will truly be for home defense only or if she will be getting a concealed carry permit. Some compact pistols offer interchangeable backstraps to custom fit her hand and, while bulkier than a subcompact, they offer better accuracy and more versatility for home defense while still being small enough to conceal.

    Your best bet may be to take her to a range and let her test a few different designs and calibers. Whatever you do, let her play a part in the selection process. Also, don't buy the gun for her. Either let her buy it or buy it for yourself. Telling the dealer you are looking for a gun for the girlfriend will likely result in him refusing the sale as it might constitute a straw purchase.



    EDIT: Syme beat me to the "submit" button. He has a great point which I had not read prior to posting this. Where's that "Live Topic" bs when you need it?
    Last edited by fm2176; 06-21-2009 at 01:16 PM.

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    Senior Member srsinternets's Avatar
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    Syme: You make a great point. I didn't even think of that. Since CCW is doubtful, a compact probably isn't in our best interest.

    FM: I can dig what you're saying, but as I mentioned above, CCW is doubtful. Proper and effective operation will definitely be practiced thoroughly of course. As far as a straw sale goes, I'm not actually buying her a pistol, I'm just using this as an excuse to buy myself one that she can use . That said, "cuteness" is still a standing factor because this has to be something she's not overwhelmed by when she does have to use it. I can't be expecting her to be comfortable with trying to use a huge unwieldy pistol while I'm away.

    She's got no issues with using my AR, and is a good shooter in general, but she has no expperience with pistols. Only what I will be teaching her.
    Last edited by srsinternets; 06-21-2009 at 01:38 PM.

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    Honestly, why use a pistol for self defense when you can use a rifle?

    But if it were me, Id get something in 9mm and dpuble action so the trigger pull isnt so hard. Like a Beretta or something. I have a Taurus PT100 (Beretta clone) in .40 and it kicks about as mich as a polymer framed 9MM.
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    .22 revolver.

    It fires like a BB gun, but still has enough of a "Oh shit I got shot" to make some gtfo in a heartbeat
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    A Lady Smith J frame .357 magnum 5 shot revolver or a 4" K or L frame 6 or 7 shot .38 Special or .357 firing the time tested FBI load of 158 grain SWCHP.
    Green is the new Red.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vengeful Scars View Post
    .22 revolver.

    It fires like a BB gun, but still has enough of a "Oh shit I got shot" to make some gtfo in a heartbeat
    This is not good advice. Your HD weapon's effectiveness should not rely on people deciding to run when they get shot. It should rely on wounding power and thus the ability to incapacitate rapidly. Anything else is irresponsible.

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    Why not a non lethal weapon like those stun guns that shoot the contacts into the intruder? They have the ability to incapacitate the person very quickly. Not sure if these can be bought for personal defense however.

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    someone entering your home shouldnt get the opportunity to live and wreak potential havoc imo

    symes right, anything less than complete stopping power is dumb. although i dont like guns in the house in the first place if you're going to have one it has to do the job as effectively as possible as fast as possible

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    Senior Member Syme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SneeBeezums View Post
    Why not a non lethal weapon like those stun guns that shoot the contacts into the intruder? They have the ability to incapacitate the person very quickly. Not sure if these can be bought for personal defense however.
    Nope, not a good idea. They aren't reliably capable of incapacitating someone; they generally only have one shot and if you miss you can't fire again; they can easily be defeated by thick clothing; and if you do manage to hit someone, they are only effective for as long as they deliver electricity... what are you going to do, stand there holding the trigger and continually zapping the guy for 15 minutes while you wait for the police to show up?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syme View Post
    This is not good advice. Your HD weapon's effectiveness should not rely on people deciding to run when they get shot. It should rely on wounding power and thus the ability to incapacitate rapidly. Anything else is irresponsible.
    So in order to defend my home I need to be able to kill with the weapon by hitting someone in an easily targeted area(body).

    I've only have the experience of shooting a .357, some sort of 9mm, a .22 and I don't remember the name of the other pistol.

    If a .22 is not enough to stop an intruder(because unless the person is hopped up on PCP or a ridiculous amount of Adrenaline I think a single .22 shot would be enough to stop someone, and if one isn't that's what the remaining bullets are for), then I'd say a .357 with hollow tipped rounds would be more than enough. But then I do not know if a woman with no experience would be able to fire that accurately, that is why I suggested the .22

    Granted I know little about firearms, other than what I've personally used. So my input should be taken with a grain of salt
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vengeful Scars View Post
    So in order to defend my home I need to be able to kill with the weapon by hitting someone in an easily targeted area(body).

    I've only have the experience of shooting a .357, some sort of 9mm, a .22 and I don't remember the name of the other pistol.

    If a .22 is not enough to stop an intruder(because unless the person is hopped up on PCP or a ridiculous amount of Adrenaline I think a single .22 shot would be enough to stop someone, and if one isn't that's what the remaining bullets are for), then I'd say a .357 with hollow tipped rounds would be more than enough. But then I do not know if a woman with no experience would be able to fire that accurately, that is why I suggested the .22

    Granted I know little about firearms, other than what I've personally used. So my input should be taken with a grain of salt
    If someone has no experience, the solution is not to get them a .22; it's to get them experience. Whatever pistol they get for home defense, she needs to learn to use it, which means practice and training. I agree than a .357 might be too much gun for her, but any of a number of 9mm automatics should be perfectly reasonable.

    Any bullet is capable of killing people, including a .22; remember that the security guard who just recently got killed at the Holocaust Museum was killed by a single bullet from a .22. However, there is a minimum threshold of wounding ability that a gun should meet in order to be able to reliably incapacitate someone, and a .22 falls below that threshold even against people who aren't hopped up on PCP or something. It can certainly kill someone, but it can't be relied on to rapidly incapacitate them, because it doesn't inflict much of a wound channel. Peppering someone with tiny, weak bullets in the hopes that multiple hits will incapacitate them is not the right way to approach the home-defense issue.

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    Senior Member SneeBeezums's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syme View Post
    Nope, not a good idea. They aren't reliably capable of incapacitating someone; they generally only have one shot and if you miss you can't fire again; they can easily be defeated by thick clothing; and if you do manage to hit someone, they are only effective for as long as they deliver electricity... what are you going to do, stand there holding the trigger and continually zapping the guy for 15 minutes while you wait for the police to show up?
    I only suggested it because it might be easier for a person to stun the person and make an escape for safety rather than pulling a trigger of a firearm and taking a person's life. I can't see whipping a gun out and shooting a person for the first time, life or death situation, is an easy thing to do. I mean hell every girl I know doesn't want to go hunting to kill animals and cries if they hit one with their car. It might be easier emotionally for the person to have one of those stun guns, incapacitate the robber, and run until the cops show. If you take out a firearm and hesitate even the slightest, whose to say the robber isn't armed and will likely retaliate.

    As for the debate in the caliber, a .22 would not be a bad choice. A .22 round is strong enough to penetrate the human skull. Or even a 9mm. If might not have enough oomf, but again, a well placed round will kill a person. If you shot a robber in the lungs, heart, or the head he isn't going to be getting away.

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    Senior Member Syme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SneeBeezums View Post
    As for the debate in the caliber, a .22 would not be a bad choice. A .22 round is strong enough to penetrate the human skull. Or even a 9mm. If might not have enough oomf, but again, a well placed round will kill a person. If you shot a robber in the lungs, heart, or the head he isn't going to be getting away.
    Uhh, no, this is totally wrong. Again, it's not about whether the bullet can kill someone, it's about whether it can reliably and rapidly incapacitate them. This depends on penetration and wound channel diameter. All bullets are capable of killing someone, but not all bullets are capable of reliably and rapidly incapacitating them. .22 LR is not capable of the latter. End of story. .22 is therefore a terrible choice for defensive use. There is a reason that virtually every single self-defense instructor, firearms expert, etc. will tell you that .22 is an inadequate round for self-defense.

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    Guys a .22 is a HORRIBLE self defense round. Period.
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    at least consider the alternative of shooting poisonous darts made of shoelace through a mcdonalds sweet tea straw before jumping to an all conclusive opinion

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    What if its a really strong poison? lol

    The smallest Id ever go for self defense is a 9MM. I MIGHT... MIGHT go with a .380 if I was looking for something that was super small.
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    I do agree that the .22 is a poor man stopper, however at a simple distance of generally less than 25 feet the .223 ar-15 isn't going to do much more damage. This isn't me attempting to bash the ar-15 the good quality models are decent battle rifles for longer range shooting, but I wouldn't want to use one up close unless I had to.

    If it must be a handgun I would never pick a .22 in anything but a revolver simply due to seeing more dud .22 rounds than anything else. I consider the .380 a little underpowered but it will do much better than a .22 If you decide on a revolver I would recommend a full size .357 mag, if its to powerful for her shoot some lighter .38 specials until she gets used to it. I also say the full sized model because it will be heavier and have a longer barrel leading to less felt recoil and more accuracy.

    I don't see why there are so many claims that girls can't operate the slide on semi auto pistols. I see girls shooting there hubby's or boyfriends handguns at work every day with no problem.

    Oh and OP I don't suppose I can talk ya into a 12 or maybe a 20 gauge pump shotgun can I? Nothing says GTFO like a face full of 00 buckshot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    I do agree that the .22 is a poor man stopper, however at a simple distance of generally less than 25 feet the .223 ar-15 isn't going to do much more damage. This isn't me attempting to bash the ar-15 the good quality models are decent battle rifles for longer range shooting, but I wouldn't want to use one up close unless I had to.
    Are you serious? lol

    Do you think it gains speed once it leaves the bbl or something? Its going its fastest when it leaves. And a .223 is devastating, they tumble and fragment as soon as they hit flesh.

    EDIT: With that being said, I wouldnt want my sister or my mom or any one not experienced with guns to use my AR in the house. over penetration is a big issue with rifles.
    Last edited by Anonymous D; 06-23-2009 at 06:17 PM.
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    Senior Member Syme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    I do agree that the .22 is a poor man stopper, however at a simple distance of generally less than 25 feet the .223 ar-15 isn't going to do much more damage. This isn't me attempting to bash the ar-15 the good quality models are decent battle rifles for longer range shooting, but I wouldn't want to use one up close unless I had to.
    You have absolutely no fucking idea what you are talking about. The common .223 ball ammo (M193 and M855) is particularly effective at close range, because as long as it's velocity is above ~2700 fps, it will fragment very effectively and inflict a brutal wound cavity. It's at longer range, once the velocity has dropped below ~2700 fps (which happens around 150-200 yds. from a 20" barrel, 50-100 yds. for a 14.5" M4 barrel), that the .223 round loses terminal effect and could maybe begin to be compared to a .22 LR in terms of wound cavity profile. Within effective fragmentation range, a .223 round is not only vastly more effective than a .22 LR round, it's more effective than most ball/FMJ .30-caliber rifle rounds (because most of them don't fragment effectively).

    Please don't try to give firearms advice if you have no idea what you're talking about. There is absolutely nothing about the .223 round or the AR-15 that causes poor terminal performance within 25 feet or whatever. You just completely made that up.
    Last edited by Syme; 06-23-2009 at 06:50 PM.

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    Rule of thumb:



    Anything smaller than this is a lady's pistol.


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    A buddy of mine just got one of the new SW Sigmas. It's light, easy to use 9mm and the trigger has a safety built right in. Apparently no fumbling with a switch or button, just squeeze hard and it'll fire. I haven't shot it yet but for someone who has never fired a gun before that might be great.

    Also, I gotta say that a big ass dog will keep most tweakers out. Seriously, some people might see a chick with a gun and be like "she's a lousy shot" but if they see a Rottweiler or Pitbull, they think "Fuck, I can't outrun that."
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    Quote Originally Posted by no_brains_no_worries
    Also, I gotta say that a big ass dog will keep most tweakers out. Seriously, some people might see a chick with a gun and be like "she's a lousy shot" but if they see a Rottweiler or Pitbull, they think "Fuck, I can't outrun that."
    While I agree that even the sound of a large dog's bark is enough to send the petty thug away, I dont think a dog will work in this situation. Considering they live in apartment, a lot of landlords will not allow dogs over certain sizes, or none at all, into the apartment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by no_brains_no_worries View Post
    A buddy of mine just got one of the new SW Sigmas. It's light, easy to use 9mm and the trigger has a safety built right in. Apparently no fumbling with a switch or button, just squeeze hard and it'll fire. I haven't shot it yet but for someone who has never fired a gun before that might be great.

    Also, I gotta say that a big ass dog will keep most tweakers out. Seriously, some people might see a chick with a gun and be like "she's a lousy shot" but if they see a Rottweiler or Pitbull, they think "Fuck, I can't outrun that."
    My buddy has a Sigma in .40 and although I hear all kinds of bad stuff online about them, his has never messed up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SneeBeezums View Post
    While I agree that even the sound of a large dog's bark is enough to send the petty thug away, I dont think a dog will work in this situation. Considering they live in apartment, a lot of landlords will not allow dogs over certain sizes, or none at all, into the apartment.
    I didn't even think about that. I read an article a few years about about pet store owners claiming that the majority of customers looking for a large dog (100lbs +) are single college girls who want home defense. I wouldn't suggest a single female to own a dog that rivals them in weight, but since they are a couple I figured it might be a good move.
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    Quote Originally Posted by no_brains_no_worries View Post
    I didn't even think about that. I read an article a few years about about pet store owners claiming that the majority of customers looking for a large dog (100lbs +) are single college girls who want home defense. I wouldn't suggest a single female to own a dog that rivals them in weight, but since they are a couple I figured it might be a good move.
    Oh yeah don't get me wrong I like the idea and plan on having a large breed dog of my own as well. I have a 1yr old 110lb Great Dane/Lab mix at home. When somebody is at the door or she hears something she don't like she barks and goes ballistic. I could see this making some people nervous of walking through the door. Although from what I understand some insurance companies will raise your home owner's insurance if they know that you have a dog like a Rottweiler or Pitbull because of their reputation.

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    Also, a gun is easier to maintain than a dog. Even if she is an animal lover and maintaining a dog isn't a big deal, you also don't have to train the gun or constantly worry about it attacking innocent people or house guests.

    Finally, you can actually take a gun out of the house, leave it at home when you're away, get rid of it easily if you don't feel like you want it anymore, etc. Buying a dog that's trained to maim attackers requires far, far greater commitment than getting a gun. I don't see how anyone could even seriously suggest it for home defense to be honest, unless you have people dedicated to the dog's care or you're an insane militant moutaineer who thinks the government is constantly out to get you.
    Last edited by sycld; 06-25-2009 at 03:16 PM.


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    that was by and far the worst comparison i've ever witnessed

    apples and fucking oranges bro they're two completely different forms of defense that shouldn't be put side by side

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    Quote Originally Posted by faesce View Post
    that was by and far the worst comparison i've ever witnessed

    apples and fucking oranges bro they're two completely different forms of defense that shouldn't be put side by side
    err well other people in this thread are directly comparing them, though you're right in that they are quite different. that was part of my point.


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    who else is directly comparing them besides you?

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    λεγιων ονομα μοι sycld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by faesce View Post
    who else is directly comparing them besides you?
    Quote Originally Posted by no_brains_no_worries View Post
    Also, I gotta say that a big ass dog will keep most tweakers out. Seriously, some people might see a chick with a gun and be like "she's a lousy shot" but if they see a Rottweiler or Pitbull, they think "Fuck, I can't outrun that."
    ...and then others followed suit.

    Look, they're both self-defense systems of a sort, and both would protect this girl if they workedl. However, a dog is highly impractical.


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    he was making a specific comparison in the situation involving a woman defending a house. it was a retarded thing to say, but all he was expressing was that for this particular individual, a dog would be a good idea and a gun would be a bad idea. note he didn't say one is better than the other or even has any bearing on the other choice.

    compare this to how you made an all conclusive opinion. let me ask you a question, how can one of the most popular and effective home invasion deterrents of modern time be "impractical"? does that sound logical to you?

    i remember talking with syme about a similar issue regarding using firearms to defend your home versus fortifying your house with the proper outfitting required to deter invaders. what was concluded was that utilizing both is the best you can do for your safety, however they have no reason to be compared because they can both be performed independently or in unison.

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    λεγιων ονομα μοι sycld's Avatar
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    Okay faesce, whatever you say, even though I thought you'd be intelligent enough to realize that I'm referring to the same situation and not anyone living in any setting anywhere.

    compare this to how you made an all conclusive opinion. let me ask you a question, how can one of the most popular and effective home invasion deterrents of modern time be "impractical"? does that sound logical to you?
    Show me statistics that say more people have guard dogs than home security systems or guns, especially considering that increasingly more and more local governments are explicitly banning breeds of "dangerous" dogs, especially bulldogs.

    I have no interest in having this stupid argument with you. Do you have Now if you'll pardon me, I'm going to go and build a fence topped with barbed wire around my house's perimeter as a practical home defense solution.
    Last edited by sycld; 06-25-2009 at 04:05 PM.


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    Faesce, I think you are misunderstanding scyld's comparison. He isn't comparing guns and dogs in terms of which is "better", he is comparing them in terms of practicality and ease of maintenance, which is perfectly valid. He is right about guns/dogs insofar as keeping a dog really is more expensive and more troublesome than keeping a gun. Obviously dogs and guns are two different things, but money is money, and hassle is hassle, and those things CAN be directly compared, and the gun requires less of each. It's their effectiveness, not their cost, that can't be realistically compared. Gun ownership definitely does require more of a commitment than gun ownership, that comparison isn't "apples and oranges".

    Just for the record, I have a dog as well as guns in my home. I didn't buy the dog for home defense--I bought it because me and the guys I live with love dogs--but he does have a good, deep, big-dog bark that he unleashes when people come to the door, which I suppose isn't a bad thing if a burglar is snooping around trying to decide which house on the block to hit up. He definitely couldn't be relied on to actually attack an intruder though. Anyhow, there's no question that my guns are cheaper and easier to maintain than my dog, just as sycld said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sycld View Post
    Okay faesce, whatever you say, even though I thought you'd be intelligent enough to realize that I'm referring to the same situation and not anyone living in any setting anywhere.
    The first part was clearly in reference to her situation, however the second part of your post was not and shows no indication that it was. You should attempt to think about what you say if you don't want it misinterpreted (which it wasn't--because I'm pretty sure you actually think dogs are a bad home security measure) Here's the second part of your reply, feel free to point out where you specified that you weren't making a generalization about dog ownership.

    "Finally, you can actually take a gun out of the house, leave it at home when you're away, get rid of it easily if you don't feel like you want it anymore, etc. Buying a dog that's trained to maim attackers requires far, far greater commitment than getting a gun. I don't see how anyone could even seriously suggest it for home defense to be honest, unless you have people dedicated to the dog's care or you're an insane militant moutaineer who thinks the government is constantly out to get you."

    Quote Originally Posted by sycld View Post
    Show me statistics that say that a lot of young single people living in urban or sub-urban settings have guard dogs, especially considering that increasingly more and more local governments are explicitly banning breeds of "dangerous" dogs, especially bulldogs.
    Almost any breed capable of becoming large can be trained and utilized as a guard dog, and if you don't already know that dogs are widely used as defense, no amount of statistics will sway your fabricated vision.

    Quote Originally Posted by sycld View Post
    I have no interest in having this stupid argument with you. Do you have Now if you'll pardon me, I'm going to go and build a fence topped with barbed wire around my house's perimeter as a practical home defense solution.
    You're the one creating an absurd notion that goes against common sense. Also, home fortification goes a lot farther than fencing in your yard, but I'm sure you already knew how big of a deterrent a camera/lights/secured doors/windows/etc can be before you decided to make a sarcastic remark regarding fortifcation.
    Last edited by faesce; 06-25-2009 at 04:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syme View Post
    Faesce, I think you are misunderstanding scyld's comparison. He isn't comparing guns and dogs in terms of which is "better", he is comparing them in terms of practicality and ease of maintenance, which is perfectly valid.
    this is the sentence that got me:

    "I don't see how anyone could even seriously suggest it for home defense to be honest"

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    Quote Originally Posted by faesce View Post
    this is the sentence that got me:

    "I don't see how anyone could even seriously suggest it for home defense to be honest"
    Ahh, okay, yeah, that is maybe a bit over-the-top. I would say that I would suggest guns and home-security systems first, though, and only suggest the dog if those things were already present and the person still wanted even more security. Guns and security systems are just defensive gear, but a dog is obviously more than another piece of defensive gear, it's a pet that has to be cared for, which means it takes far more effort and expense than the other options.
    Last edited by Syme; 06-25-2009 at 04:28 PM.

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    This thread reminds me:

    I haven't made up the range cards for the windows yet...

    Later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sycld View Post
    err well other people in this thread are directly comparing them, though you're right in that they are quite different. that was part of my point.
    Other people in this thread dont know shit about self defense.

    Dogs are good to let you know someone is around the house by barking, but after that, if the perp has a gun. a dog will not stop him.
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