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Thread: Discimination against gun owners

  1. #41
    feel like funkin' it up gwahir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syme View Post
    But gwahir: Let me also remind you that it is true that, despite the lethal nature of guns, the vast majority of defensive gun uses don't end in a fatality. There are widely varying estimates on the number of defensive gun use incidents that occur every year in the US, but even the lowest estimates are several hundred thousand incidents per year, and the most widely cited figure is more than two million incidents per year. This means that for every time an armed citizen kills in self-defense, dozens or hundreds of armed citizens use their guns to defend themselves without killing anyone (and of course, a significant fraction of those incidents represent the successful prevention of a murder, rape, etc. that otherwise would have occurred).
    I didn't know this. It's quite heartening, indeed.

  2. #42
    FFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUU Anonymous D's Avatar
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    Syme is right. I carry a gun, but I wont shoot someone the moment I have to pull it. Id much rather be able to get them to get the fuck away, or get on the ground till police come. But if you carry a gun you should always know that if you pull it, you should be ready to take a life, because you never know what will happen.

  3. #43
    Senior Member bacon ops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syme View Post
    Bacon ops, as a gun owner, I disagree that gwahir spoke "out of ignorance" when he said that owning a gun for self-defense amounts to owning a gun for killing people. I can't speak for others, but personally, I refrained from "correcting" him on this point not because I thought he was speaking out of ignorance, but because I don't disagree with him.

    Yes, it is true that when you use a gun for self-defense, you aren't actually trying to kill someone; you are trying to dissuade them, and if that doesn't work, to incapacitate them. But you dissuade them by threatening them with a deadly weapon, and if you are forced to incapacitate them, you do so by using that weapon to inflict wounds that could easily prove deadly. All this stuff about only inflicting a "superficial wound" or "shooting the guy in the hand" is a bunch of nonsense, and you should know better. If you have ever taken a CCW class or any other form of self-defense training, you know that you DON'T attempt to non-lethally wound an attacker; you DON'T try to shoot them in the arm or hand or leg or foot. You aim for their center of mass, where their heart is located, and fire repeatedly until your target falls to the ground (or, less likely, flees). The ability of the firearm to inflict lethal wounds is what makes it work as a defensive weapon. If the firearm wasn't capable of inflicting lethal wounds, it wouldn't be able to dissuade or to incapacitate an attacker. So when you use that weapon to "stop the threat", you are, by definition, threatening another person with the possibility of death--and then, if necessary, inflicting wounds that may well cause their death--even if their death isn't your express goal. So I don't it's ignorant of gwahir to perceive guns, at least those owned for defensive purposes, as being intrinsically lethal in their nature or character. Irrespective of whether the user actually wants to kill someone when he defends himself, and irrespective of whether he even does so, he's relying on the gun's lethality to get the job done. In this sense, he's owning that gun expressly because it can kill someone. And I think gwahir is right when he says that this ugly truth can't be skirted around by talking about how the defensive gun user isn't trying to kill someone (true as that may be in it's own right).

    But gwahir: Let me also remind you that it is true that, despite the lethal nature of guns, the vast majority of defensive gun uses don't end in a fatality. There are widely varying estimates on the number of defensive gun use incidents that occur every year in the US, but even the lowest estimates are several hundred thousand incidents per year, and the most widely cited figure is more than two million incidents per year. This means that for every time an armed citizen kills in self-defense, dozens or hundreds of armed citizens use their guns to defend themselves without killing anyone (and of course, a significant fraction of those incidents represent the successful prevention of a murder, rape, etc. that otherwise would have occurred).

    Very well put, Syme.

    The "non lethal wound" business was theoretical in nature, Syme; I've been taught to aim for C.O.M. just like everyone else.

    I meant the "ignorance" in quite a literal sense; I wasn't questioning his intelligence, I was just pointing out that he was uneducated on the issue, and therefore, ignorant of the facts.


    Thanks for this post, though, really well put.

  4. #44
    FFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUU Anonymous D's Avatar
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    What does C.O. M. stand for?

  5. #45
    Senior Member bacon ops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous D View Post
    What does C.O. M. stand for?
    Communique on Manatees.

    Just kidding, it's center of mass.

    You know, now that I think about it, I've seen some people who have their center of mass somewhere around their wastelines. Blargh, fat people. :tengu:

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