My ideal SHTF rifle would be a 10.5 in barreled gas piston AR-15 from Addax Tactical. As far as the optics Id put something like an Aimpoint on it. The batteries for those things last forever. I like EOTechs better, but they dont have as much battery life. They both do also run on AAs though, which are easy to find anywhere. And .223 is a very popular caliber.
Originally Posted by Nermy2k
Frankly, I'd rather go for something cheap and rock-solid like an SKS, or an AK if I feel high-cap magazines are important. Or even a short-barreled (22" or less) bolt-action in a moderate .30-cal chambering. I'm not sure I see what advantage a gas-piston AR SBR provides in exchange for it's very high cost; it will also have a maximum effective wounding range of like 50 yards with M855/M193 ammo, which is not a good thing. Seems like kind of a tactilol choice TBH, no offense intended.
I picked a gas piston AR because it would be reliable like an AK, and more accurate. And a 10.5 in bbl is easily able to hit a man sized target, and still have enough umph to take them down at 200 yards. Its once you go below 10 inches that the ballistics start to get REALLY messed up. Ive seen a 7 in barreled gas piston system hit an 18x18 in target at 300 yards, but from my research, Ive found that they only are effective out to about 100 yards or less.
50 yards for a 10.5 in is nothing.
I didnt know we were talking about cheap SHTF rifles. lol
I'm not talking about ballistic accuracy or "umph", I'm talking about the minimum velocity that M855/M193 needs to reliably fragment in tissue. This velocity is about 2700 fps. Below this velocity, these rounds are about as terminally effective as a .22 magnum. From a 20" M16 barrel, these rounds don't drop below 2700 fps until about 150-200 yards from the muzzle. From a 14.5" M4 barrel, it's more like 100 yards, although round-to-round variation can make it as short as 50 or 60 yards (or as long as 150). For a 10.5" barrel, the round is not going to reliably fragment even at 50 yards. So while 50 yards may be "nothing" for a 10.5" AR in terms of accuracy, it's definitely a problem in terms of wounding capability. Of course you can always use tactical hollowpoints (TAP, Mk.262, etc.), but then your weapon's terminal effectiveness is dependent on comparatively rare and pricey ammunition, which kind of undermines the whole point of choosing a rifle in a commonly available caliber like .223. Given these facts, I don't really see the point of an 10.5" AR. "SHTF" survival isn't about bodyguarding VIPs or doing room-to-room house clearing. What advantage does an ultra-compact AR offer? A normal-sized .30-caliber rifle is far more reasonable IMO.
If you want something that's as reliable as an AK and accurate enough to hit a man-sized target at normal combat ranges.... how about an AK. Also, even gas-piston ARs aren't really as reliable as AKs.
Last edited by Syme; 05-24-2009 at 09:10 AM.
But they are still more accurate.
If money was not an option Id love to get a .308 AR.
And as far as the ammo, Id be using some 77gr bullets. From what Ive seen, a 10.5in AR with 77 gr ammo is effective out to 200+ yards.
Plus lets not forget that I have a 16 in upper. Which leads us to another reason I would pick an AR. You can swap from a 10.5 in upper to something longer in a few seconds. Sure it would be a little more weight, but not much. And TBO any type of SHTF scenario I encounter down here, will more than likely be some kind of hurricane shit. So I shouldnt have to even go anywhere. Just "defend the base" lol.
77-grain bullets are great (I'm assuming you are talking about Match King/Mk.262 here), but like I said, that makes your rifle's wounding capability dependent on the availability of a comparatively rare type of ammunition. If all that's available is the normal ball stuff, you are out of luck, because that stuff will not perform well from a short barrel. Earlier, one of your reasons for choosing an AR was that it uses .223, a popular round. But the popularity of .223 in general doesn't do you much good if your rifle only has good terminal ballistics when used with a particular type of .223 ammunition, and that particular type is expensive and uncommon.
You could also get a .308 AR for much less than you'd be spending on this Addax 10.5" AR setup you've described. According to the Addax website, their 10.5" upper is $1265 by itself. Add in $200 for the SBR tax stamp, plus $300 or so for a lower, plus $400 or so for this Aimpoint you want to put on it, and you are talking about a $2000+ rifle. You can easily get a very good .308 AR for under $1500. Or, even better, a good FAL for around $1000 or less. Or just a 20" barrel AR, which would have good terminal ballistics out to 200 yards even when used with normal ball ammo. Why is an ultra-compact carbine desirable? Like I said, we're not talking about riding around Baghdad in a Chevy Suburban bodyguarding some VIP.
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