it's not about 'don't defend yourself' it's about 'don't use tools you don't know how to'
a situation where you're trying to defend yourself can escalate from being an unarmed scuffle to you and your assailant wrestling over your knife, and if I was in the latter situation, I would wish I was in the former. It's even worse if both of you have knives - neither of you is walking away without a serious injury if you end up fighting, even if you're trained.
Originally Posted by coqauvin
That's the argument I'm trying to present.
People were killing, and defending themselves well enough before the invention of training and certification.
The use of a knife in a violent situation is not rocket science.
The footwork, grip techniques, and other minutia of the various martial arts associated with "knives" is, however, very complicated.
I'm not going to waste my time arguing with every person who wants to insist that self-defense with a knife isn't dangerous (the internet is full of such people). I've already explained why it's a bad idea, if the only counterargument you can offer is "dude it's not rocket science" then you are obviously not examining the issue intelligently. Again, pretty much all reputable self-defense instructors will tell you the same thing: Trying to use a knife for self-defense, unless you are a proficient knife-fighter, is a bad idea in every way. You can accept that fact or ignore it. I find that the people who want to ignore it are usually immature or hot-headed individuals who like the idea of knife self-defense on an emotional level and aren't willing to let the facts intrude.
As for the studies I mentioned, no, they do not "include gang bangers as participants". You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. They are statistical studies based on UCR figures or other government data, so they don't have any "participants" at all.
Last edited by Syme; 10-31-2009 at 05:38 PM.
Unless there are knife duels among the common citizens of America, then I don't see how they wouldn't include unsavory individuals like "gang bangers" to compile that amount of data.
TL;DR
When did I say it wasn't dangerous?
I just said it doesn't take a black belt to know that if you cut at someone's wrists, they are going to let you go either from pain, or on the off chance that you sever some tendons on the back of their hands.
It also doesn't take a reputable self defense expert to know that if you cut at someone's neck, it is not going to be conducive to being the victim of any further assaults from that person.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0930121512.htm
Studies such as this do indeed include criminals and the goings on in their lives as sources of data. They aren't participants, per se, but I've never heard of any kind of epidemiological study that had participants in the pure sense of the word.
So, since I've elaborated the why of my argument, let's see you elaborate on your side.
How exactly, does an assailant take a knife from an individual?
Isn't taking a knife from someone using it as a weapon generally considered to be a difficult thing best left to "reputable self defense instructors?"
This again falls under the fallacy that all muggers/assailants are magical jedi knights who will disarm you with the blink of an eye.
If they don't take the knife, how do they manage to stab you with it?
Now, please, elaborate on how an assailant injures an able bodied person who is using a knife as a weapon.
EDIT: I should state that I do not carry a knife for self defense.
That's what my 1911 is for.
Last edited by DAVIDSDIVAD; 10-31-2009 at 10:15 PM.
coq is right, an attacker doesn't have to be a "jedi master who will disarm you in the blink of an eye" in order for you to get stabbed with your own knife. I'm not saying that the attacker will necessarily take your knife away from you, I'm saying that in a physical altercation with a knife involved it's quite difficult for an untrained person to control the situation. Someone is going to be stabbed and it could just as easily be you as it could be your attacker.
Just to be clear, are you advocating drawing a knife on an unarmed assailant? Because completely irrespective of whether that puts you in danger of being stabbed with your own knife, that puts you in considerable danger of getting into severe legal trouble and going to jail for quite some time.
LOL, I didn't ask you to quote Coq.
I asked for a reasonable scenario outside of the realm of Steven Seagull movies where a person could take away a knife from a lay person with ease, and do so with the deliberate action and confidenc necessary to get anything more than a handful of hand, or sharp and pokey metal.
Think about it in a realistic fashion, from the assailants P.O.V. :
You are squared off against an able bodied person holding a knife.
They are mobile, and so are you.
What do you grab to get the knife away?
The handle? It's inside of their grip.
Their wrist? You'd better be faster than Bruce Lee on Redbull.
The blade? yeah, but you'd better throw some ninja stars first.
No, I'm advocating drawing my knife in a " would you be so kind as to get away from me so that I might produce a pistol" fashion.
Besides, there are waaaayyy too many variables to consider before making a statement like that.
Ability, Oppurtunity and Jeopardy =/= weapon. So, yes, if I believed an assailant had the capability to kill me, and oppurtunity to kill me, I would produce a weapon to stop them.
So, before I was shouted down by cries of "DONT USE A WEAPON, THEY'LL ONLY USE IT ON YOUUUUU", let's go back and review my original point(s.)
A.) You don't need training to seriously hurt an attacker with a knife.
B.) You do need training to have perfect footwork, timing, and such
Last edited by DAVIDSDIVAD; 11-01-2009 at 02:06 AM.
probably the same way unarmed fighters can break arms from an overextended punch. you don't really need to be spectactular to grab an arm and twist, or squeeze a pressure point and make a hand release a knife, but you need to be good. training makes these moves reflexes, so you can react in proper timing to such manoevres. It's not without risk, certainly, but you don't need to grab the knife to disarm them - you just need to get control of their weapon arm.
A.) strictly speaking, no - the rule of 'pointy end goes in bad guy' is pretty simple in nature, but it's harder than you think to stab someone who is prepared for you, regardless of whether or not they have training.
B.) well, yes, this goes without saying, but you realize these things minimize danger for you so why are you arguing against them?
the issue isn't 'don't use a weapon' it's 'don't use a weapon you aren't trained to use'
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