Thread: Girl-Friendly Home Defense

Okay faesce, whatever you say, even though I thought you'd be intelligent enough to realize that I'm referring to the same situation and not anyone living in any setting anywhere.

compare this to how you made an all conclusive opinion. let me ask you a question, how can one of the most popular and effective home invasion deterrents of modern time be "impractical"? does that sound logical to you?

Show me statistics that say more people have guard dogs than home security systems or guns, especially considering that increasingly more and more local governments are explicitly banning breeds of "dangerous" dogs, especially bulldogs.

I have no interest in having this stupid argument with you. Do you have Now if you'll pardon me, I'm going to go and build a fence topped with barbed wire around my house's perimeter as a practical home defense solution.

Originally Posted by sycld

Okay faesce, whatever you say, even though I thought you'd be intelligent enough to realize that I'm referring to the same situation and not anyone living in any setting anywhere.

The first part was clearly in reference to her situation, however the second part of your post was not and shows no indication that it was. You should attempt to think about what you say if you don't want it misinterpreted (which it wasn't--because I'm pretty sure you actually think dogs are a bad home security measure) Here's the second part of your reply, feel free to point out where you specified that you weren't making a generalization about dog ownership.

"Finally, you can actually take a gun out of the house, leave it at home when you're away, get rid of it easily if you don't feel like you want it anymore, etc. Buying a dog that's trained to maim attackers requires far, far greater commitment than getting a gun. I don't see how anyone could even seriously suggest it for home defense to be honest, unless you have people dedicated to the dog's care or you're an insane militant moutaineer who thinks the government is constantly out to get you."

Originally Posted by sycld

Show me statistics that say that a lot of young single people living in urban or sub-urban settings have guard dogs, especially considering that increasingly more and more local governments are explicitly banning breeds of "dangerous" dogs, especially bulldogs.

Almost any breed capable of becoming large can be trained and utilized as a guard dog, and if you don't already know that dogs are widely used as defense, no amount of statistics will sway your fabricated vision.

Originally Posted by sycld

I have no interest in having this stupid argument with you. Do you have Now if you'll pardon me, I'm going to go and build a fence topped with barbed wire around my house's perimeter as a practical home defense solution.

You're the one creating an absurd notion that goes against common sense. Also, home fortification goes a lot farther than fencing in your yard, but I'm sure you already knew how big of a deterrent a camera/lights/secured doors/windows/etc can be before you decided to make a sarcastic remark regarding fortifcation.

Originally Posted by faesce

this is the sentence that got me:

"I don't see how anyone could even seriously suggest it for home defense to be honest"

Ahh, okay, yeah, that is maybe a bit over-the-top. I would say that I would suggest guns and home-security systems first, though, and only suggest the dog if those things were already present and the person still wanted even more security. Guns and security systems are just defensive gear, but a dog is obviously more than another piece of defensive gear, it's a pet that has to be cared for, which means it takes far more effort and expense than the other options.

Okay, please someone clarify this:

Originally Posted by no_brains_no_worries

Also, I gotta say that a big ass dog will keep most tweakers out. Seriously, some people might see a chick with a gun and be like "she's a lousy shot" but if they see a Rottweiler or Pitbull, they think "Fuck, I can't outrun that."

So are we talking about Pitbulls and Rottweilers trained to attack and maim humans and having these dogs living in our houses with us as guardians, or are we talking about dogs whose bark alerts us to the presence of intruders and whose size appears intimidating?

If it's the former, how do you, like, have guests come over to your house?

This is probably the most retarded argument in history

Here's my input: dogs are cute



IT'S OK FAESCE I DIDN'T SAY THEY WERE CUTER THAN GUNS

Sigmas have the worst trigger Ive ever handled. It is seriously like 20 lbs. Something like 5.5-6 lbs is ideal for a defensive handgun.

Id use my SBR AR-15 with my Hornady TAP 77gr 5.56 (NOT .223) for self defence over an AK any day.

Ive used both MANY MANY times. And the AR is just a better weapons system overall IMO.

I like AKs, and I will be picking up a Romanian underfolder after I get my Garand, but Ive just seen them fail too many times. Which makes me laugh because people always say how reliable they are. Cheap guns = cheaply built with cheap parts = unreliable.
I could make an entire thread on this, but Ill keep it short.

As for the hunting bullets in a SD weapon, there is a reason companies make HD ammo, and hunting ammo, and they are different.

Here's the real answer to girl-friendly home defense...



He knows kung-fu.

Of course, that might be too friendly if she's your girlfriend.

I got a 10.5 for self defence, but like you said, I knew what I was getting into. I know that the effective range is probably somewhere around 75-100 yards. And its all about ammo selection with this thing. I am still on the hunt for this ammo, but once I find it Ill stock up. Its the Hornady 5.56 77 gr I was talking about. The fact that its a 5.56 and not a .223 adds a little to the effective range. And the 10.5 in gun is made for a home defense gun. I doubt Ill ever have to take a shot over 100 yards in my house, and if I do, well then I have a huge ass house. I have my 16 in AR for longer distances.

Originally Posted by Anonymous D

I got a 10.5 for self defence, but like you said, I knew what I was getting into. I know that the effective range is probably somewhere around 75-100 yards. And its all about ammo selection with this thing. I am still on the hunt for this ammo, but once I find it Ill stock up. Its the Hornady 5.56 77 gr I was talking about. The fact that its a 5.56 and not a .223 adds a little to the effective range. And the 10.5 in gun is made for a home defense gun. I doubt Ill ever have to take a shot over 100 yards in my house, and if I do, well then I have a huge ass house. I have my 16 in AR for longer distances.

I was actually talking about fragmentation range; what I meant is that with a 10.5" barrel, M193/M855 rounds won't even have enough velocity to reliably fragment at the muzzle. So by that standard of "effectiveness", with those rounds, the 10.5" barreled AR has an "effective" range of zero yards. But if you are using hollowpoints then it's a non-issue. Just be sure that your hollowpoint of choice expands reliably at whatever muzzle velocity it gets from that barrel (should be around 2300 fps for Mk.262-style 77 grainers from a 10.5").

Also, I think this pic says about all that needs to be said.



And thats just 55gr. The 62 gr is even worse. Id love to see what the 77 gr TAP stuff can do.

Ive always heard that out of a 10.5 most ammo will have an effective range of about 75 yards.

And I do have some TAP 55 gr HP bullets that Im using now.

I was just checking and that 75 gr TAP is HP. So Ill be fine with that.

Yea, when I said effective I was talking about fragmentation? Are you sure those numbers are right? I could have sworn that a 20 in bbl will fragment at like 250-300 yards.

Originally Posted by Anonymous D

Yea, when I said effective I was talking about fragmentation? Are you sure those numbers are right? I could have sworn that a 20 in bbl will fragment at like 250-300 yards.

Yeah, they're right. Bear in mind that they are the ranges at which the bullets will reliably fragment. That doesn't mean it's impossible for bullets to fragment at ranges longer than that; it just means that fragmentation shouldn't be relied upon at those ranges. It's not impossible for the bullet to fragment at 250 yards from a 20" barrel, or at 75 yards from a 10.5" barrel. But it's far from guaranteed and shouldn't be relied upon.

The variation is due in part to manufacturing variations in bullet construction, powder charge, etc. (the M855 bullet is particularly complicated in it's construction, which leads to a lot of performance variation), and in part to the certain degree of randomness that exists in uncontrollable external and terminal-ballistic factors. I gave the M4's frag range as 50-100 yards but in fact even from a 14.5" barrel, M855 rounds can drop below fragmentation velocity as little as 10 yards downrange.

Also it's not entirely impossible for M193/M855 rounds to fragment when hitting at less that 2700 fps. They can sometimes fragment (albeit less destructively) in the 2600-2700 fps range. If you include this, the "fragmentation ranges" for a given barrel length will increase accordingly. You still won't get reliable fragmentation from <14.5" barrels even at close range, though.


EDIT: You probably won't like hearing this, but here's what Ammo Oracle says about sub-14.5" AR barrels:

"Question. My department is considering using 10" or 11.5" barrels for our ARs. They are so cool, and everyone knows that all the real go-fast, high-speed, low-drag operators use SBRs. Plus, Robert DeNiro uses one in "Heat." What's the best ammo to use to poke big holes in the bad guys with these?"

"We dislike this question. We dislike it because of its premise. The premise is that 10" or 11.5" barrels are good choices for law enforcement or defensive use. We strongly disagree with this premise. Some of us actually dislike even 14.5" barrels, in fact.

The primary wounding mechanism for .223 and 5.56 ammunition is fragmentation. The primary factor in fragmentation is velocity. The primary velocity booster is barrel length. 11.5" barrels barely bring milspec (NATO) 55 grain FMJ to 2700 fps (the critical fragmentation threshold for many FMJ .223 rounds). Accordingly, any distance at all drops the rounds below fragmentation velocity. 10" barrels are unlikely to ever get rounds above fragmentation velocity at all.

If you are saddled with a department mandated SBR we recommend the following:

1. A marathon letter writing campaign citing the Ammo Oracle often persuading the powers that be to see reason and potentially save lives by giving you REAL weapons, not toys.

2. Use heavier rounds known to fragment at lower velocities and do more tissue damage such as:

68 grain Hornady Match OTM
69 grain SMK OTM
75 grain Hornady TAP
77 grain Nosler OTM

Obviously, you should probably have a 1:7" twist.

Under no circumstances should you take comfort in the assurances your armorer gives you that the latest soft point or hollow point law enforcement specialty round will solve the problem. Most likely it will not. Soft point and hollow point rounds lack penetration even at high velocity. Because they are not prone to yawing or fragmentation lower velocities will not increase penetration as with many fragmenting rounds."

They have the ammo I plan on using in that list at the end. I wonder what the muzzle velocity is on the 75 gr TAP from a 10.5. I need to find someone with a chronograph. And make some ballistics gel. lol.

I would like to see what kind of damage these heavier rounds do from a shorter bbl.

Someone needs to invent a faster burning powder. lol. If that would happen, I could easily get the 2700+ from the bbl, and further depending on how fast it burned.

EDIT: And I like hearing anything that makes me learn more about my guns.

Yea, I know it will always perform better in a longer barrel, to a certain extent.

Im going to go on my AR15 forum and ask some questions about the faster burning powders.

Syme posts alot of walls of text. But there is alot of useful info in them. lol

Originally Posted by DAVIDSDIVAD

Yeah, I know.

LOL, if I wanted his useful info, I'd just play COD4 and watch CNN

I had someone tell me that the heartbeat sensors were real technology the other day. Then I asked them how something could pick a heartbeat out over tons if explosions and gunshots, and they were stupefied. lol