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Thread: If athiests ruled the world

  1. #41
    ))) joke, relax ;) coqauvin's Avatar
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    Did you read what I said at all? I have made my position clear on this several times.

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    Journeyman Cocksmith Mr. E's Avatar
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    Part of the problem is that there really isn't a way for religious people to rebute, seeing as religion is faith based and atheism is intellectually based. Not being able to prove there is a god is kind of the point of religion, because it wouldn't be genuine if people knew for sure that there were a god. It isn't really fair for either to attack the other for seeing things the way they do, because they are not at all comparable views. They come from two completely different places.

    Debate, sure. Criticism, sure. Attacks, not really justified. At least not for the run-of-the-mill religious person.

    Now, of course, attacking people like the faggots who post on that forum isn't a bad thing, because they are fucking stupid. This video isn't really clever at all, and I find that kind of stupidity more sad than hilarious, but I think it could be funny if it were done better.

    I don't really know who I am talking to or what point I am trying to prove, but I'm just sayin'

  3. #43
    Senior Member Syme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coqauvin View Post
    Yes, but we can describe anything solely by a literal description and miss the subtext of what they're saying. It's not strictly speaking the content of this video that perturbs me - it's the spirit that goes into making it, the spirit that enjoys it and the perpetuation of that mindset that aggravates me.
    I dunno, it just seems to me that the ideas they are lampooning in this video are so utterly absurd and so ripe for mockery--"if our cells are really full of deoxyribonucleic acid, how come we don't all dissolve?"--that it's hard to say with any confidence that the video reveals any broadly anti-religious spirit on the part of the makers, or that someone who enjoys it has any broadly anti-religious spirit. I dunno, I just don't see it. I get what you're saying, but in this case, I think the target of the derision is so eminently deserving of derision that there's just no grounds for claiming that there's an underlying anti-religious subtext. The stuff in the video is dumb enough that people with no beef against religion in general could still very well be inclined to mock it.

  4. #44
    Journeyman Cocksmith Mr. E's Avatar
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    It seems this conversation has transcended the video and moved on to statements about society in general.

  5. #45
    Love's Young Nightmare Nevrmore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwahir View Post
    Do you need to be so confrontational? I don't think anyone in this thread has said anything particularly stupid or aggressive, so nobody deserves to be talked down to or insulted. We're having a debate.

    Settle.

    Now carry on.
    Quote Originally Posted by coqauvin View Post
    oh of course i am

    dumbass
    Obligatory "learn to read" written in humorously ironic internet shorthand.

  6. #46
    feel like funkin' it up gwahir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nevrmore View Post
    Obligatory "learn to read" written in humorously ironic internet shorthand.
    I'm sorry; what I should've said was "Nobody had said anything particularly stupid or aggressive before you arrived".

  7. #47
    Band simonj's Avatar
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    Why are the Video Vault threads turning all AI?

  8. #48
    Senior Member Syme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonj View Post
    Why are the Video Vault threads turning all AI?
    Because this forum is for talking about the videos that people post, so when someone posts a video that deals with a topic like evolution/creationism or religious fundamentalism, people will talk about it. Shocking, I know.

  9. #49
    Love's Young Nightmare Nevrmore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwahir View Post
    I'm sorry; what I should've said was "Nobody had said anything particularly stupid or aggressive before you arrived".
    Thank you.

  10. #50
    λεγιων ονομα μοι sycld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwahir View Post
    I'm sorry; what I should've said was "Nobody had said anything particularly stupid or aggressive before you arrived".
    except for the christians in the video, of course.

    we must BURN them all.

    right after I have INTERACIAL SODOMY WITH MY GAY LOVER, that is, while YOUR WIFE IS LOOKING


    PANDAS
    If you don't like them, then get the fuck out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Think View Post
    Atheists are quite right

  11. #51
    ))) joke, relax ;) coqauvin's Avatar
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    sycld you are making me want to bend you over and do unspeakable homosexual activities in your ass-ular regions while making your wife watch with her x-ray vision

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by coqauvin View Post
    This isn't about me or my beliefs or lack thereof. It's the 'let's all hate religion' bandwagon that has appeared recently that bothers me. The people who hop on that are just as misguided as those they hate, and for the same reasons.
    But religion is stupid. It is good that more and more people are starting to see it that way. It has lost its relevance. They are not as misguided, that simply is not true. Mocking people who believe in an invisible superman in the sky who will send you for torture for the rest of time if you kiss someone of the same sex isn't misguided.

    What they do in this video is to hold up some of the stupidity of the religious right for us all to laugh at. Just because lots of people hold these beliefs, and they are old doesn't make them any less stupid. So what if some people may not have any strong philosophical understandings to why it is stupid, it doesn't matter because the christian right is blatently stupid, you don't need your amateur philosophy hat on to see that.

    Sure, there are people who get evangelical about god hating, without having spent alot of time mulling the ideas over. You seem to imply that you must have a well thought out argument and reason for hating on religion - you don't, whilst it might make you seem intelligent and it is generally more pleasant to hear well considered reasons, the simple fact that religion is redundant and built upon pillars of stupidity make it all ok.

  13. #53
    Senior Member Syme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gismo View Post
    But religion is stupid. It is good that more and more people are starting to see it that way. It has lost its relevance. They are not as misguided, that simply is not true. Mocking people who believe in an invisible superman in the sky who will send you for torture for the rest of time if you kiss someone of the same sex isn't misguided.

    What they do in this video is to hold up some of the stupidity of the religious right for us all to laugh at. Just because lots of people hold these beliefs, and they are old doesn't make them any less stupid. So what if some people may not have any strong philosophical understandings to why it is stupid, it doesn't matter because the christian right is blatently stupid, you don't need your amateur philosophy hat on to see that.

    Sure, there are people who get evangelical about god hating, without having spent alot of time mulling the ideas over. You seem to imply that you must have a well thought out argument and reason for hating on religion - you don't, whilst it might make you seem intelligent and it is generally more pleasant to hear well considered reasons, the simple fact that religion is redundant and built upon pillars of stupidity make it all ok.
    Hahahahah

  14. #54
    Journeyman Cocksmith Mr. E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gismo View Post
    But religion is stupid. It is good that more and more people are starting to see it that way. It has lost its relevance. They are not as misguided, that simply is not true. Mocking people who believe in an invisible superman in the sky who will send you for torture for the rest of time if you kiss someone of the same sex isn't misguided.

    What they do in this video is to hold up some of the stupidity of the religious right for us all to laugh at. Just because lots of people hold these beliefs, and they are old doesn't make them any less stupid. So what if some people may not have any strong philosophical understandings to why it is stupid, it doesn't matter because the christian right is blatently stupid, you don't need your amateur philosophy hat on to see that.

    Sure, there are people who get evangelical about god hating, without having spent alot of time mulling the ideas over. You seem to imply that you must have a well thought out argument and reason for hating on religion - you don't, whilst it might make you seem intelligent and it is generally more pleasant to hear well considered reasons, the simple fact that religion is redundant and built upon pillars of stupidity make it all ok.
    Blind hatred is more retarded than blind faith. By your logic christians are worse than racists. By your logic the Pope is worse than Hitler. You. Are. Retarded.

  15. #55
    windmills of your mind Think's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gismo View Post
    But religion is stupid. It is good that more and more people are starting to see it that way. It has lost its relevance. They are not as misguided, that simply is not true. Mocking people who believe in an invisible superman in the sky who will send you for torture for the rest of time if you kiss someone of the same sex isn't misguided.

    What they do in this video is to hold up some of the stupidity of the religious right for us all to laugh at. Just because lots of people hold these beliefs, and they are old doesn't make them any less stupid. So what if some people may not have any strong philosophical understandings to why it is stupid, it doesn't matter because the christian right is blatently stupid, you don't need your amateur philosophy hat on to see that.

    Sure, there are people who get evangelical about god hating, without having spent alot of time mulling the ideas over. You seem to imply that you must have a well thought out argument and reason for hating on religion - you don't, whilst it might make you seem intelligent and it is generally more pleasant to hear well considered reasons, the simple fact that religion is redundant and built upon pillars of stupidity make it all ok.
    Wow - just wow. I need time to think about this.
    You boy, are getting a wall of text once I've sorted out my views coherently.
    (p.s. you're wrong)

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    Senior Member Syme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Think View Post
    You boy, are getting a wall of text once I've sorted out my views coherently.
    I wouldn't bother if I were you.

  17. #57
    Journeyman Cocksmith Mr. E's Avatar
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    And then a uniting force came unto the thread, and the people were brought together to oppose the force of idiocy.

  18. #58
    ))) joke, relax ;) coqauvin's Avatar
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    i thought i had lost this argument until gismo came along and proved me right, especially with this little doozy:

    Quote Originally Posted by gismo lol
    Sure, there are people who get evangelical about god hating, without having spent alot of time mulling the ideas over. You seem to imply that you must have a well thought out argument and reason for hating on religion - you don't, whilst it might make you seem intelligent and it is generally more pleasant to hear well considered reasons, the simple fact that religion is redundant and built upon pillars of stupidity make it all ok.
    hahaha well guys, the other side isn't human or has any characteristic making them human, so it's ok to kill them!

    ps i can't wait to read think's post

  19. #59
    McTroy MrTroy's Avatar
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    Gismo doesn't represent me or any sane human being. Scientific people thrive on well thought out arguments and reasons
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  20. #60
    ))) joke, relax ;) coqauvin's Avatar
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    atheistic does not infer scientific

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    McTroy MrTroy's Avatar
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    Atheistic may not infer scientific, but scientific usually infers non-belief or doubt. There is a difference between atheist who are atheist because they feel betrayed and angry at the world and think religion is fucking stupid, and atheist who are atheist because of known evidence and facts.
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    I'd rather fuck a child

  22. #62
    windmills of your mind Think's Avatar
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    wall o' text's going to have to wait til I have the time
    Quote Originally Posted by MrTroy View Post
    Atheistic may not infer scientific, but scientific usually infers non-belief or doubt. There is a difference between atheist who are atheist because they feel betrayed and angry at the world and think religion is fucking stupid, and atheist who are atheist because of known evidence and facts.
    tell me, you say this; but does the law of parsimony really play that important a role in the rest of your life?
    Sorry, but with the available evidence it's simpler to believe you have a different underlying reason
    Last edited by Think; 04-09-2009 at 12:14 AM.

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    feel like funkin' it up gwahir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrTroy View Post
    atheist who are atheist because they feel betrayed and angry at the world
    i daresay there are very few of these

    most people who are angry at god continue to believe in god (otherwise how could they be angry at him)

    some people, though, find it impossible to believe in a god who could allow so much suffering to exist, and i hold that position

    (that actually came after i was already an atheist though)

  24. #64
    ))) joke, relax ;) coqauvin's Avatar
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    The whole "I can't believe in a God who allows suffering" is something I can understand, but I think it's a position that is inherently flawed.

    However, I won't discuss that itt.

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    Journeyman Cocksmith Mr. E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coqauvin View Post
    The whole "I can't believe in a God who allows suffering" is something I can understand, but I think it's a position that is inherently flawed.

    However, I won't discuss that itt.
    I feel the same way, and I, too, will not discuss it itt.

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    feel like funkin' it up gwahir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coqauvin View Post
    The whole "I can't believe in a God who allows suffering" is something I can understand, but I think it's a position that is inherently flawed.

    However, I won't discuss that itt.
    Well, I will! Not forcefully, but I will say that there is no satisfying answer to the question of how a benevolent god can allow such suffering.

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    Senior Member Syme's Avatar
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    All He has to have done is decided to give us free will and not renege on that decision.

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    feel like funkin' it up gwahir's Avatar
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    Surely the combination of omniscience and benevolence would have prevented that.

    Plus, it's not as easy as "he created us as wonderful beings with souls, completely free to choose to act badly or well". He created us with some serious fucking faults.

    He must have known he was doing nobody a favour when he foresaw (as he must have) that people would, because of their significant and varied faults, use their free will to inflict terrible suffering on innocent others.

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    I made that post in a hurry, re reading it I see that the point which I was trying to make was well and truely lost by the incoherant manner in which it was framed. I shall try better this time.

    What I do want to make clear is that I do think religion is stupid and has lost its relevance, there are much better ways of understanding ourselves and our world.

    Mr Troy hit on what I was aiming to say. I don't want to get bogged down in semantics here, but I think it is safe to say that there are 2 kinds of atheist, ones who have given proper thought to the notion of god, who may have read up on famous atheist works which challenge the notion, read up on different branches of science and then came to conclude that they don't believe there is a god as the evidence against is too strong. They are able to give good reasoning to back up their atheism when needed and give coherant, reasoned criticisms of god and religion (which is fine).

    And there are those who don't think there is one, but arrived at this conclusion by different means. Whilst less thoughtful, I would first like to say that it doesn't imply hatred. The notion of an invisible man in the sky, and blind faith in the Bible, which is quite clearly a book of myths totally staggers me and I find it's stupidity glaringly obvious. This group generally cannot give the same arguments as the first, their arguments tend to be "lol godfag" or something like that. Whilst crude, and something I personally try to avoid (if I am being serious), it doesn't imply hatred (I doubt few, if any of these guys have murdered a religious person for their faith, the opposite cannot be said however) and it doesn't always carry with it a notion of "im clevr".

    Yes, there are some people who criticise religion for being stupid and then try to claim that therefore they must be clever, we all know it doesn't work like that. I want to make it clear that you can still make mindless digs at god without adopting this attitude, and that in my mind is ok too.

    Since when did criticism of religion have to be from a point of scientific understanding? Alot of people here seem to think that if you wish to have a go at god, you better be able to justify it. Why? To make it clear, this isn't the same as "lol stupid christians, I therefore am clever by virtue of mockin u", the christian god and myths quite clearly are not true, the nonsense of it all is striking, so if people want to take midnless digs at it, go ahead.

    Again to make it clear, I don't like it when people take digs, then try to imply it gives them intelligence, or try to mask themselves as the first kind of atheist, as I don't believe the deserve to. One of the other video's about telling christian boys how to avoid the urge, whilst I didn't find it amusing, I have no issue that the guy chose to make it.

    Let me be clear with what I mean with "dig", as judging by some posts it would seem people have taken this to mean almost anything. I mean stuff like silly youtube video's mocking god. Or someone making a thread on an internet forum. I am not talking about murdering people, or going to faith schools and shouting at the kids. These aren't the same, and the latter is not what I meant.

    Many of you are according far too much respect to religion.

    Again, I sense I am having trouble expressing my point....look at it this way, let us say personX believes in the tooth fairy. PersonX is 40 years old. What alot of you guys are saying is that to criticise him for this belief, you must provide sound reasoning as to why this is wrong, because the blatent stupidity of the situation is not enough. Thats not to say he should be criticised, in person at least, I wouldn't do that for the same reason I never talk about religion with my religious friends, I don't wish to offend them. But if I were to criticise it, surely the blatent stupidity of this notion would be strong enough cause. And yes, I brought religion down to the level of the tooth fairy, as in my opinion they are very alike in essence, wishful belief in a fantasy. Except one is far less prevelant and dangerous.

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    Senior Member Syme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gismo
    I don't want to get bogged down in semantics here, but I think it is safe to say that there are 2 kinds of atheist, ones who have given proper thought to the notion of god, who may have read up on famous atheist works which challenge the notion, read up on different branches of science and then came to conclude that they don't believe there is a god as the evidence against is too strong.
    There is no way that reading up on various scientific topics could ever provide you with any evidence against the existence of a god. I say this as an atheist and someone spends a lot of free time reading scientific literature.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gismo
    the christian god and myths quite clearly are not true, the nonsense of it all is striking, so if people want to take midnless digs at it, go ahead.
    That is not a strong argument.

    It isn't that everyone here is according respect to religion as much as it is the people here respecting the reasonable members of religion on the virtue that they are human beings and their belief systems are important to them. Running around saying, "god isn't real, you guys are retarded because of what you believe, herfnesnerfnesnu," is just discourteous, whether your reasoning is justified or not and whether you are saying it just to harass them or you are saying it from a place of superiority. It isn't an issue of what you believe, it is an issue of being a considerate person.

    There is nothing wrong with expressing dissension reasonably, but there is no need to be an ass about it (unless they are particularly asking for it like the people who post on those fundamentalist forums).

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    Band simonj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gismo View Post
    And there are those who don't think there is one, but arrived at this conclusion by different means. Whilst less thoughtful, I would first like to say that it doesn't imply hatred. The notion of an invisible man in the sky, and blind faith in the Bible, which is quite clearly a book of myths totally staggers me and I find it's stupidity glaringly obvious. This group generally cannot give the same arguments as the first, their arguments tend to be "lol godfag" or something like that. Whilst crude, and something I personally try to avoid (if I am being serious), it doesn't imply hatred (I doubt few, if any of these guys have murdered a religious person for their faith, the opposite cannot be said however) and it doesn't always carry with it a notion of "im clevr".
    He does have a point. I've been an atheist since I was about 7. Not because I saw any flaws in the bible or because I read up on evolution or because I understood the inherent flaws in Pascal's Wager. It was more that I simply didn't see any necessity in believing in a God (I suppose I was more of an Agnostic). As I grew up the things I learnt seemed to only confirm this more until I decided to drop the obnoxious 'Agnostic' label and call myself an atheist. This is because I don't believe there is a God, simple as.

    There's been a lot of talk in the media over here about the importance of respecting people's beliefs. Surely that's just wrong. I respect the right to hold whatever beliefs you so choose but if I think it's stupid then I believe that I should have the right to say so. That's all that's gone on so far in this thread (in regards to Gismo's posts) and I don't entirely understand why everyone's joining the 'lolidiot' bandwagon other than maybe because his contribution was poorly worded and slightly brassy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syme View Post
    There is no way that reading up on various scientific topics could ever provide you with any evidence against the existence of a god. I say this as an atheist and someone spends a lot of free time reading scientific literature.
    This is true but it can certainly spark the way towards atheistic beliefs. Of course it's not going to provide you with evidence against a higher power but that's only because such belief is predicated entirely on a lack of evidence (see: faith). This argument isn't so black and white.

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    If someone plays some music for me that I think sucks I have the right to say it sucks, but out of respect for their opinions I generally just say that I don't like it and maybe give some reasons why. It isn't that I don't have a right to say it sucks, it is just an issue of respect and decency. If you don't choose to have respect and decency then that is your right, but just because it is your right to be that way doesn't make it justified or reasonable.

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    Senior Member Syme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonj View Post
    This is true but it can certainly spark the way towards atheistic beliefs. Of course it's not going to provide you with evidence against a higher power but that's only because such belief is predicated entirely on a lack of evidence (see: faith). This argument isn't so black and white.
    Even if belief in a higher being wasn't predicated entirely on a lack of evidence, science would still be incapable of providing evidence against it. Anyone who believes otherwise doesn't understand science or how it works. I'm not sure what you mean by "this argument isn't so black and white". The only thing I'm saying in black-and-white terms is that science is incapable of providing evidence against the existence of supernatural entities. That's just a fact.

    Incidentally, I came about my atheism the same way you did: When I was about 8 years old, I said to myself, "Wait a minute... I don't have any evidence that this guy exists. Generally speaking, I don't believe things unless I have a reason to believe them. So why is God different?"

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    feel like funkin' it up gwahir's Avatar
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    Bad music doesn't harm anyone, Mr E.

    I agree that there's no need to be discourteous to people who don't deserve it (which is the majority of religious people). But sometimes it's not discourtesy, and sometimes they deserve it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. E View Post
    If someone plays some music for me that I think sucks I have the right to say it sucks, but out of respect for their opinions I generally just say that I don't like it and maybe give some reasons why. It isn't that I don't have a right to say it sucks, it is just an issue of respect and decency. If you don't choose to have respect and decency then that is your right, but just because it is your right to be that way doesn't make it justified or reasonable.
    But if someone goes on and on and on about how and why Nickelback are one the greatest bands in the world I will probably tell them to shut up and tell them why they're probably wrong. Then they'll sulk away and just mutter something about 'opinions'.

    Similarly, I'm very tolerant of people's religious views until it comes to the point where they're preaching at me. Then I consider it 'gloves off' and will probably tell them to shut up and then say why I believe they're wrong (although, I'll probably treat them a lot more politely than I would any Nickelback fan - even though the two groups do tend to share space on the relevant Venn Diagram).

    There is nothing wrong and there is plenty right about religious tolerance and respect but to keep such discussions bottled up for the ignorant reasons coq has already stated is not healthy for society and will only create more problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syme View Post
    Even if belief in a higher being wasn't predicated entirely on a lack of evidence, science would still be incapable of providing evidence against it. Anyone who believes otherwise doesn't understand science or how it works. I'm not sure what you mean by "this argument isn't so black and white". The only thing I'm saying in black-and-white terms is that science is incapable of providing evidence against the existence of supernatural entities. That's just a fact.

    Incidentally, I came about my atheism the same way you did: When I was about 8 years old, I said to myself, "Wait a minute... I don't have any evidence that this guy exists. Generally speaking, I don't believe things unless I have a reason to believe them. So why is God different?"
    Ok, we're saying the same things here, just in two misunderstood ways so let's just disagree to agree.

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    Journeyman Cocksmith Mr. E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwahir View Post
    I agree that there's no need to be discourteous to people who don't deserve it (which is the majority of religious people). But sometimes it's not discourtesy, and sometimes they deserve it.
    I agree with this entirely.

    While religion may somewhat hurt the world, it also does good in the world (I'm not implying that atheists don't do good too). If the world was run by atheists I think things would probably be generally the same as they are now. Most cases of religion hurting people are mislabeled. If there was no religion people would have to be more honest about why they did the bad things they did, but they would still do them. If there was no religion it wouldn't eliminate the issues of abortion, gay marriage, race, sex education, or anything else, it would just change some of the reasons why some people were divided on the issues.

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    λεγιων ονομα μοι sycld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syme View Post
    There is no way that reading up on various scientific topics could ever provide you with any evidence against the existence of a god. I say this as an atheist and someone spends a lot of free time reading scientific literature.
    I'd just like to add to this why the existence of god is unscientific, since a lot of people just don't understand what science is and what science isn't. They get the impression in elementary to high school that science is a corpus of facts about how the world works that's taught by fiat, statements that should be held as true simply because they are being taught by an authority. That's not what science is at all.

    The proposal that god exists is unscientific because it is non-falsifiable. Science works more or less by observing a phenomenon, formulating a hypothetical model with predictive power to describe the phenomenon, and then by performing experiments to see if them model can predict their outcome. If it does, the model is accept as a "true" scientific theory. If not, it is discarded or modified.

    God is presented to us as a supernatural entity or at least as one that transcends the physical reality that is sensible to us. Science works only with stuff we can perceive with our senses, usually indirectly through the use of instruments, but nonetheless only with stuff for which we can correct direct evidence.

    So what does all this have to do with unfalsifiablity? Well, science works through deductive reasoning. That means it tries the same thing over and over and over and over again, and if the same thing happens again and again and again, then it makes a general statement about the world from these specific instances.

    Now, it is impossible to definitively determine that a proposition is true in science. At best we can determine truth beyond a reasonable doubt. However, it is possible to show that something is false in science by finding just one instance of something which definitely contradicts a statement.

    Since God "transcends" the realm of phenomenality, there is no experiment that could concievably be used to show that the proposal "God exists" is false. On the other hand, it is quite easy to concieve of an experiment that could show any host of scientific theories are false, and what sorts of outcomes they would have to be.

    This is why the existance of God is inherently an unscientific idea.


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    Journeyman Cocksmith Mr. E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonj View Post
    But if someone goes on and on and on about how and why Nickelback are one the greatest bands in the world I will probably tell them to shut up and tell them why they're probably wrong. Then they'll sulk away and just mutter something about 'opinions'.

    Similarly, I'm very tolerant of people's religious views until it comes to the point where they're preaching at me. Then I consider it 'gloves off' and will probably tell them to shut up and then say why I believe they're wrong (although, I'll probably treat them a lot more politely than I would any Nickelback fan - even though the two groups do tend to share space on the relevant Venn Diagram).
    It seems we are in agreement then. When the gloves come off I think anything is fair. I'm just critical of atheists who act like the gloves are always off, provoked or not.

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