Well before you get even more upset listen to the very first fucking thing the old guy says in the video:Originally Posted by Syme
"How much would you charge me for a spitshine?"
And then he says:
"YOU OFFERED!"
GG
Well before you get even more upset listen to the very first fucking thing the old guy says in the video:
"How much would you charge me for a spitshine?"
And then he says:
"YOU OFFERED!"
GG
So, again: Absolutely nothing to support your suggestion that the white guy started the incident because he "kept asking the black guy to shine his shoes".
This is what I figured. I shouldn't have said it was obvious because looking back on it it isn't. The first thing I heard was the white guy saying how much would you charge me for a spitshine. If that was the first thing that was said then I think it was a blatantly racist comment that was undeserved. If the situation occurred like anonymous d said then I would think the black guy is in the wrong. Assuming my original theory was true, it doesn't matter what the white guy said or did after, he completely instigated the entire thing. He would have been picking on someone who he determined wouldn't let that comment go in an effort to start a conflict and moving to the front of the bus doesn't change anything.
I know am jumping to some conclusions by thinking this and what made me do that was hearing about the guy starting trouble before(getting tazed at a baseball game, the clip of him after he got off the bus). It seems more likely that this guy was just starting trouble again and I don't see why we should give him the benefit of the doubt instead of someone who has no history of this kind of stuff(that we are aware of at least).
In the video in question, you can see him decide to escalate a verbal argument to physical violence AFTER the other party to the argument walked away, so I'm not entirely sure it's fair to say that he's the one deserving the benefit of the doubt. Also, didn't he turn out to be a convicted murderer who was violating his parole by carrying a knife? And didn't he threaten the other guy with it? I don't know what exactly you mean by "this kind of stuff", but if that's true, it's also probably not fair to say that he had no history of instigating altercations.
Yes the black guy decided to continue confronting the white guy after he had made a blatantly racist remark and moved to another spot on the bus like that would make it ok that he had said that. So if I went up to someone and said something derogatory to them but then I walked 10 feet away and sat down, it would be ok? The guy shouldn't have resorted to violence but I can see how it happened. Again remember I am basing this off of the assumption that the first thing that was said was what the guy said on the video. I haven't heard anything about the guy turning out to be a convicted murderer who was violating his parole, nor did I hear anything about a knife being involved(and I think that was clear by my saying "that we are aware of at least"). I only watched the video 2 times though so I very well could have missed it. When I said "this kind of stuff" I obviously meant a history of instigating altercations, and I know you knew what I meant.
Really I shouldn't be giving either of them the benefit of the doubt. The black guy was clearly in the wrong for actually resorting to violence first, but the white guy was nearly as guilty in my opinion. The black guy pushed/hit him one time and the other guy just pummeled him to the ground, he could have stopped after he threw the first or second counter punch. Instead he continued to hit him right in his face, knowing he was in no real danger from the guy. How is that justified? Then he proceeded to go off the bus and run around ranting "I am a motherfucker" and you are trying to defend this guy? The whole I told you not to fuck with me part also led me to believe that he had started this knowing it was going to result in some kind of physical altercation that the white guy was confident in winning.
You seriously think physical assault is only slightly more reprehensible than insulting remarks? If you see so little difference between words and blows, that's your business I guess, but the law disagrees for a quite good reason (as do most reasonable people, I think). Offending someone verbally is not "nearly" as bad as attacking them physically.
No, I don't think that would have been a good idea. When someone assaults you, it's probably not wise to punch them back once and then stand back and be like "there, now we're even!" and expect the other guy to drop it. This isn't a couple of pre-adolescent siblings trading kiddie punches iin their backyard; this is a guy being assaulted by a violent stranger. When someone assaults you and you have to defend yourself, you should end the fight conclusively. This is not only common sense, it's legally defensible. Maybe his last few punches weren't strictly necessary since the guy was already on his way to the floor, but it's not like he got him on the ground and then started kicking/stomping him, and certainly he was justified in throwing more than one or two punches. The exchange of blows only lasted a couple seconds and the old guy didn't cross the line of justifiable defense against a physical assault.
I dunno, it guess it depends on what you mean by "defend". I'm not saying he's a civic hero, or a good person in general, nor am I trying to defend his verbal sparring with the other guy (that was irresponsible) or the way he rants and raves after he gets of the bus (though I can understand why he's worked up into an emotional state). So please don't try to suggest that I'm a fan of his behavior. But yes, I would defend him from charges that he is responsible for initiating the fight (the only one responsible for that is the guy who threw the first punch), and I would say that the way he finished the fight is perfectly defensible in every way. Unless a person can throw a pretty ridiculous punch, or gets really lucky and knocks out some teeth or something, hitting someone only once or twice is unlikely to take the fight out of them.
I think this is a pretty baseless assumption, it seems perfectly reasonable that someone would yell this when they're in a keyed-up, adrenalin-filled state after being physically assaulted by someone who they warned to leave them alone and tried to walk away from. That's no good grounds to assume that he was trying to bait the dude into a fight. If anyone besides the black guy himself bears responsibility for that, it was the idiots on the bus encouraging him to "beat his ass".
Last edited by Syme; 02-20-2010 at 10:14 PM.
I TOLD YOU NO FUCK WITH SYME
PANDAS
If you don't like them, then get the fuck out.
I think it depends on the things that were said. If he said something blatantly offensive that could start a physical confrontation then it is at least partially his fault. I do appreciate the snide "as do most reasonable people, I think" remark being tossed in. Clearly the difference verbal and physical confrontation is entirely cut and dry and one would never inevitably lead to the other.
Yea I suppose his little beating was justified, putting myself in his position I would have wanted to do the same thing. Watching the video just made it seem a bit over the top.
Listen, I'm going to make something perfectly clear right now. I am not saying that the white guy should face any kind of legal charges. I was thinking about this whole thing in terms of morality and not strictly what is or isn't legal. I never said anything involving criminal charges.
I agree that the people on the bus were irresponsible as well and only helped instigate the situation. Have you watched any of this guys videos though? He wasn't a regular guy in an adrenaline filled state, he looks to me like he is mentally unstable and I think every one of his videos support that.
I didn't say one couldn't lead to the other, obviously they can. I'm saying that when the former leads to the latter, it's a significant escalation--a major change in the situation, not just the natural next step--and the responsibility for the escalation rests with the person who said to themselves "Well this guy has offended me with what he's said so I think I'll go rearrange his face". I don't think it's reasonable to say that the person who uttered those offensive words is "nearly as guilty" (your exact phrase) in the confrontation as the guy who decided to express his indignation by clobbering whoever insulted him. I wasn't being snide, I was being quite earnest about what views I think are reasonable and unreasonable. If someone says to me (as you did) that a victim of assault is "nearly as guilty" as their attacker because they said something to piss the attacker off, I tend to think that person is being unreasonable.
I know what you're saying. I'm talking about moral responsibility just as much as I am about legal responsibility. I disagree that the older guy was "nearly" as guilty of instigating the fight, in moral terms, as his attacker. He isn't totally blameless but I think that a substantially larger portion of the blame has to go to the guy who decided to resolve a stupid verbal spat by throwing punches, especially since he chased after the old guy to do after the old guy walked away. Offensive words aren't enough to justify claims of "nearly" equal guilt. And I think that the way he handled the physical fight was perfectly defensible in moral terms as well.
That may be, but it doesn't change the fact that "I told you not to fuck with me" is a fairly reasonable thing for a keyed-up person to say after defending themselves against an attacker who they had already warned to leave them alone, so I don't think you are right in concluding that the guy must have been trolling for a fight because he said that. Maybe he WAS trolling for a fight, but the mere fact that he said "I told you not to fuck with me" doesn't support that conclusion.
Last edited by Syme; 02-20-2010 at 11:09 PM.
Legally speaking (in most US states) verbal provocation does not justify force.
Yes, it would be OK, because adults do not go attacking eachother over words.
i mean i'm a little surprised syme is lowering himself to even argue with you peons,
Oh god LOL.
LOL so hard.
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