Thread: Feel bad for posting this, but... US Islamic TV founder charged with beheading wife

Originally Posted by MrShrike

Well it's not that simple. Like torture, killing is also wrong, probably even moreso than torture.

And yet that's not the whole story. Let's look at the idea of "killing is wrong" connection to a hypothetical situation.

Principle: Killing is wrong.

Scenario: You see a man standing over a child, about to kill the child with a blade. There is no-one else around and you are too far away to tackle or stop him. You do however have a rifle, and you take aim and shoot. Perhaps you only meant to stop him by wounding him, but either way, the man is killed instantly. The child is saved.

Questions: Did you do wrong when you killed him? Were you justified in killing him (be it intentionally, or unintentionally)?

I think this example highlights, not that it is ok to do a wrong thing sometimes to achieve a right, but rather that the rightness and wrongness of the consequences of an action, are at least as morally important as the rightness and wrongess of the act itself. And that both of these are in fact more morally important than intent.

I agree with pretty much everything in this post. The point I and several others have been trying to make is that torture has limited positive consquences because of the unreliable nature of information gathered therefrom. But of course, the point bacon ops is trying to make is (apparently -- correct me if I'm wrong) that torture works.

Naturally no point is going to be effectively made until someone pulls out some trustworthy data, but trustworthy data on the efficacy of information gained through tortue is going to be hard to find.

Also, bacon ops is a repetitive hick.

Originally Posted by gwahir

I agree with pretty much everything in this post. The point I and several others have been trying to make is that torture has limited positive consquences because of the unreliable nature of information gathered therefrom. But of course, the point bacon ops is trying to make is (apparently -- correct me if I'm wrong) that torture works.

Naturally no point is going to be effectively made until someone pulls out some trustworthy data, but trustworthy data on the efficacy of information gained through tortue is going to be hard to find.

Also, bacon ops is a repetitive hick.

What I meant was that I agree with what Shrike said.
A wrong is a wrong is a wrong, unless it is justified.
Torturing someone for fun is awful, obviously, but if 1,000 lives could be saved by torturing one man, I'd be for it. Of course, Qwahir's American counterparts bitch and moan about it, but flew flags outside of their houses after 9/11 and supported invading all kinds of countries.

I'm not a hick, Gwahir; you just happen to disagree with my opinions.

You, however are an arrogant sheep.

Anyhow, that's quite enough for one thread.

Originally Posted by bacon ops

A wrong is a wrong is a wrong, unless it is justified.

...

Originally Posted by bacon ops

That's the world we live in, man.
I know it doesn't make sense to you, but it's reality. The world is full of grey areas.

"grey areas" is a gross simplification of the subtleties of ethics

i was just floored by how amazingly meaningless the statement i quoted was

Originally Posted by sycld

and through out all of your accusations, you never provided any evidence that torture is effective to refute how others have said that torture is not effective.

how do you know that torture is at all effective?

Wrong, friend-o.

I'm not basing my opinion on the condition that it's effective. I'm basing my opinion on my believing that torture is wrong. If it were to save the planet, it would be a justifiable wrong, however.


To base your entire argument on something like this, "The amount of times you get reliable information from someone is far outweighed by the amount of times you get unreliable information from someone.That's why it doesn't work", however, is just stupid.

There is a distinction between the two.

Originally Posted by bacon ops

A wrong is a wrong is a wrong, unless it is justified.

i just wanted to put this out there again