Thread: Feminism

Originally Posted by Atomic

Women should be respected and be equal but there are major differences in how men and women think and behave in a generalization. There are always exceptions. This means that women may be better suited to one task and a man may be better suited to another.

You said it yourself: there are always exceptions. That means A PARTICULAR MAN may be better suited to one task than A PARTICULAR WOMAN. Generally speaking, men of African descent are the best runners in the world -- should white men be denied access to the same opportunities? Women are often denied access simply because it is assumed that a man would be better.

Originally Posted by Atomic

I also believe that the feminist movement along with single parent (read mother, thanks moms!) have combined to make a few generations of pansy men. Not men at all, weak, emotional boys. The single mothers did the best they could. The feminists did a very bad thing.
Extreme feminists are no better than the chauvinistic men. They bring nothing but turmoil where ever they go. These feminists need to respect men. And men need to be men and respect women.

Now, this is a pretty typical claim of anti-feminists. You have to do some legwork to back it up, however. "Single mothers made this generation into pansies" is incredibly specious. First, you'd have to show that this generation is made up of pansies, which you'd have to do with more than anecdotal evidence. More likely is that this generation is much like any other, only with access to free and varied internet porn, more single parents and worse personal fitness. If you DID show that there were more pansies, you'd have to eliminate other social factors: the decline of personal fitness, more stringent anti-discrimination and sexual harrassment law enforcement, an increased focus on success-via-intelligence (a new nerdocracy) thanks to the internet, and men changing their habits BY CHOICE to impress or attract increasingly independent and discerning women. Any one of those, and others I haven't thought of, have stronger links to (alleged) increases in the numbers of "pansy men" than single mothers.

Bear in mind also that this generation is being brought up by women who fought for things like equal pay, the right to serve in the military, and so on -- this generation has been brought up by women who knew how to fight for things.

Furthermore, your assertion that "men need to be men" is one that is falling out of favour, and about time, too. Men come in a variety of natures: pansy, macho, buff, flamingly camp, nerdy, sporty, handy, French... why is one kind of man more a man than another? Am I less of a man than you? I've never been in a fight, and I hate sports and love music theatre, but I'm also very handy, know how to build, can hold my alcohol, can take care of myself in the wild and have always gotten superb reviews from women I've fucked. I'm also pretty well groomed, and don't grow a very good beard, and am pushing five feet seven at a generous guess. Does any of that make me more or less of a man than any other man?

Originally Posted by Atomic

EDIT: And my work place. It's no place for a woman. The guys are pretty rough and if the woman wants to be treated equally then she is in for a lot of tears. You should be glad that we have the respect to not say some of the things we say to each other to you. It's not nice, but guys learn to be tough skinned and not wear emotions on their sleeve.

It's funny you say that, because I know more than a few girls who could make you and your work buddies blush. The women who run in my circles tend to be thick skinned, tough, interesting, and completely good-humoured. You might be able to beat them up (men are typically stronger and bigger than women, yeah, yeah), but your friends are no more tough skinned than they are.

No, the fact is, saying things about women behind their backs is no more -- and probably less -- respectful than saying it to their face. Respect would mean not only refraining from saying offensive, objectifying things but refraining even from considering them legitimate, appropriate thoughts in the first place. I realise that you can't help thinking things, but there's a difference between thinking something and legitimising a certain thought as justified.

You should understand that I'm not attacking you. On the contrary -- less than five years ago I would have agreed whole heartedly with everything you have said. I'm trying to make you see that your take on the issue is made up of faulty, out-of-date assumptions.

Originally Posted by gwahir

Furthermore, your assertion that "men need to be men" is one that is falling out of favour, and about time, too. Men come in a variety of natures: pansy, macho, buff, flamingly camp, nerdy, sporty, handy, French... why is one kind of man more a man than another? Am I less of a man than you? I've never been in a fight, and I hate sports and love music theatre, but I'm also very handy, know how to build, can hold my alcohol, can take care of myself in the wild and have always gotten superb reviews from women I've fucked. I'm also pretty well groomed, and don't grow a very good beard, and am pushing five feet seven at a generous guess. Does any of that make me more or less of a man than any other man?

Sort of, but not really. I mean that is how women influencing men are changing them. For the worse. Men should be rough around the edges. You can have feelings if you want. I don't but... (This isn't really true, men have them but no idea how to express them.)

And as far as what you do as an activity doesn't really make you more or less of a man. I can crochet and have knitted a little. Am I a girl? I can also fish, hunt, clean what I kill, sew a button, wash dishes, cook, plat leather and many other things. Some mostly done by women and some mostly done by men.

Here is an example of a boy and a man.

A woman is balancing the checkbook register when....

Honey, I forgot to write down that entertainment system that you bought last week. I payed all the bills but the check for the power bill came back. It was 160 dollars and now we owe them 50 more and the bank another 25.

Lashing out the boy yells and berates the woman making her feel worse than she already did. "NOW I'M GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE IT OUT OF OUR SAVINGS! YOU'RE SO FUCKING STUPID!"

Understanding the man tells her "Okay, I can make a transfer from our savings this evening to cover that." She already knew she made a mistake, the boy didn't have to point it out. The endings are not the same however. Both get the 235 to the checking account but one leaves the woman bitter and insecure and the other leaves the woman having more respect for her man.

Point being have some respect for her. And women should strive to be something a man can respect. The differences between a man and a woman are awesome and I hate that people are trying to close that gap. And that gap.

Originally Posted by Atomic

Sort of, but not really. I mean that is how women influencing men are changing them. For the worse. Men should be rough around the edges.

They should be? Why? And who are you to decide what men should be? Why can't men be whatever men want to be?

Originally Posted by Atomic

You can have feelings if you want. I don't but... (This isn't really true, men have them but no idea how to express them.)

...Isn't that a bad thing? Isn't more emotional intelligence, and a greater ability to deal with emotions in a productive way a good thing?

I have to say your difference between boy and man is just a difference between child and adult.

Furthermore, and more worryingly, the first response, with the yelling and name-calling, is a pretty typical man-ish response. I mean, resorting straight away to anger and aggression is testosterone city, isn't it? Obviously not all men do this, I rush to point out, but the second response -- the understanding one -- suggests a deeper emotional intelligence, and a willingness to compromise, that are NOT typical masculine traits. I would say that that kind of emotional intelligence is GROWING. Men aren't turning into sissies. They're turning into better functioning people. (Some of them.)

Originally Posted by Atomic

And women should strive to be something a man can respect. The differences between a man and a woman are awesome and I hate that people are trying to close that gap. And that gap.

The differences between men and women are limited to the placement of their genitals. Name one other difference that applies globally to men and women, go ahead.

As for women striving to be something a man can respect? I mean, that is an absolutely foul sentiment. Why should a woman be beholden to the desires of a man?! They are their own people -- women do not exist for the benefit or to win the respect of men! Besides, as I've already covered, "men" are all very different -- there is no one thing that gets you the respect of "men".

Your views on the subject are tragically outdated, closed-minded and uneducated.