Violent rhetoric and the shooting in AZ

**thank mr skeltal** · 01-11-2011, 04:58 PM

"Right" and "Left" is a big joke, both parties are identical on all but a few fringe issues that are purposefully decisive of the populous (abortion, gay marriage, guns etc). Those issues are a blip on the radar compared to major things such as monetary policy, foreign relations, war, etc but the limited discourse on those topics is lost in the noise of "debate" of the fringe issues.
Look at the major issues:

Economy - both sides support excessive government spending, the continuation of central banking policies that obviously have some very major underlying issues that need addressed

War - Before Obama, it was squarely the right wings fault that we were sending young men overseas to die while muddling in the affairs of other sovereign countries. I haven't heard the left side calling for them to all come home recently, have you?

Health Care/Social Security - Both sides "agree that it's a problem" but continue to pass the buck of that unpopular decisions required to fix it onto the next Congress.

Foreign Relations - fuck everybody else, USA is #1. Both sides agree with that 100% and have no humility

Fringe issues and the violent rhetoric exist to hide the fact that there is only one party in the U.S. by turning citizens against each other and making them line up on the "left" or "right". If you don't pick a side you are considered a crazy weirdo (think Ross Perot or Ron Paul followers) instead of a viable alternative.
As people are beginning to figure this out, as I think they are, the rhetoric will only get more decisive and violence will only increase. Something like this Gifford event will happen from time to time, everyone will call a "time out" period to cool off but it will just start back up again. No one will call anyone else out on it in Washington because they are doing it themselves as well.

What is the solution? I have no idea. Things are so gone at this point in my opinion, we really just need to do a hard reset and have a civil war or collapse of our economy or something so we can get over this and start the healing and reformation process. Something drastic has to happen to systemically shock our current trends, I don't think chipping away at the problems by offering little band-aid solutions is going to help for much longer.

Also this shooter is straight up crazy. I get the feeling he leans right if anything at all because of his views on currency but I don't think Palin was even on this guys radar, that was just an interesting coincidence. No one (but Stewart of course/unfortunately) will simply chaulk it up to him being crazy though, it sells a lot more advertising slots on the news channels to debate if this is the fault of the right or left.

Oh. One other guy at least has said that this dude was simply a lunatic and we need to stop trying find who to blame - the father of the 9 year old girl that was killed. He also does not place blame on gun control laws. How about that.
http://radioviceonline.com/a-father-...cson-shooting/

**coqauvin** · 01-11-2011, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by Rick Scarf

The shooter is straight up crazy. I get the feeling he leans right if anything at all because of his views on currency but I don't think Palin was even on this guys radar, that was just an interesting coincidence. No one (but Stewart of course/unfortunately) will simply chaulk it up to him being crazy though, it sells a lot more advertising slots on the news channels to debate if this is the fault of the right or left.

Oh. One other guy at least has said that this dude was simply a lunatic and we need to stop trying find who to blame - the father of the 9 year old girl that was killed. He also does not place blame on gun control laws. How about that.
http://radioviceonline.com/a-father-...cson-shooting/

Stewart mentioned that as well, remarking it was both as predictable as it was disappointing.

I don't really have much of an opinion on this, except to say that Western democracy in general is a big bait-and-switch operation that gets away with it because of the apathy of the population with it's cushy lifestyle. There are plenty of people who want change, but it's not a majority thing yet, and it won't be unless something catastrophic happens.

I think the worst thing is that the only reliable thing about politicians is how they'll make out everything around them to be about them or their opponents. This kind of narcisstic self-absorption is also such a big part of the Western psyche as well, which is why, when shit like this shooting happen, we pause for a moment to make ourselves look good (or get caught up in the pathos of the news, which is a whole other story) then either turn it into something to for us, or ignore it once it's purpose has been used. Can this viewpoint be blamed? I don't know. I find it a little reprehensible, but that's really only mild moral outrage compared to a system which, for all it's faults, still gets things done, even if it is only the cheapest, bare minimum.

blah, blah, blah, ramble tamble - the point I was going for is that pointing fingers at this point is fucking ridiculous. You can't blame any one thing over any other thing. They're all equally culpable, in my eyes. Whenever shit like this happens, everyone's first response is "What could we have done to prevent this? Won't someone please think of the children?" I don't think anything would have prevented it - determined people generally get shit done, regardless of what's in place to stop them. You can't fix crazy, either. The only thing that is actually within our control is the world that we live in, and I'm with Stewart on the fact that we shouldn't make our political opponents (be they social or religious or whatever) out to be enemies. Doing so only encourages the kind of exploitative system we have in place now, and causes crazy people to snap, like this guy did. Disagreement can be dealt with without outright hostility, or instilling views that wouldn't seem out of place in a civil war.

**gwahir** · 01-11-2011, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by Rick Scarf

"Right" and "Left" is a big joke, both parties are identical on all but a few fringe issues that are purposefully decisive of the populous (abortion, gay marriage, guns etc). Those issues are a blip on the radar compared to major things such as monetary policy, foreign relations, war, etc but the limited discourse on those topics is lost in the noise of "debate" of the fringe issues.

Well, this is right and wrong. Right and Left (more accurately "Less Right", as I said) do exist, and the Left is far more interested in people's freedoms and more -- but not that much more -- willing to cooperate with other natures. But even if Right and Left are identical except for a few social issues, they're not identical. Gay marriage and abortion and public healthcare MATTER to people, and I don't think I agree with what you seem to be saying, which is that the whole debate is just a puppet theatre to distract us.

But even if both "sides" stood for mostly the same things, that's not the point here. The first question is: do you agree that the state of political rhetoric in the U.S. could have contributed to this guy's mindset -- and could contribute in the future? If so, do you find there's a difference between the two parties? The Democrats and the GOP have markedly different rhetorical techniques, I think that much is obvious, but how much difference does that make? And whether you believe that the vitriol contributed or not -- do you think it needs to change? How do we do that?

Originally Posted by Rick Scarf

Oh. One other guy at least has said that this dude was simply a lunatic and we need to stop trying find who to blame - the father of the 9 year old girl that was killed. He also does not place blame on gun control laws. How about that.
http://radioviceonline.com/a-father-...cson-shooting/

Well, that's good. I find the gun control debate to be irrelevant here. And while it's nice that the dad has the sang froid right now to say something so bipartisan and controlled, it doesn't mean he's necessarily right.

**thank mr skeltal** · 01-11-2011, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by gwahir

The first question is: do you agree that the state of political rhetoric in the U.S. could have contributed to this guy's mindset -- and could contribute in the future? If so, do you find there's a difference between the two parties? The Democrats and the GOP have markedly different rhetorical techniques, I think that much is obvious, but how much difference does that make? And whether you believe that the vitriol contributed or not -- do you think it needs to change? How do we do that?

It could have contributed, but looking at his youtube stuff there is no evidence of that at all, it apparently wasn't significant enough to be worth mentioning. He is just pure crazy.
In the future, absolutely it could contribute to acts such as this. The parties may use slightly different rhetoric but they aren't calling the other out on it because they are using it themselves - so both sides are equally to blame in my eyes. It absolutely needs to change, we need new people in Washington. More young people need to get involved in the process, and more people need to run for office, not just for Congress/Sentate, but local offices such as the mayor or even the neighborhood watch chairman. It will take a true grassroots swell (not the fake corporate-sponsored grassroots that plagued the last election cycle) to gain the momentum to positively change things non-violently. I doubt that is going to ever happen though because people are either lazy, or too busy working to put food on the table that they don't have the time to get involved. I'm guilty of that myself, I'll be the first to admit - in a perfect world I'd run for local office but I need to provide for my family and get through grad school instead of that, and likely will not have the time in the future to contribute in that manner either so complaining on the internet is about the best you'll get out of me. If someone could figure out a way for armchair people to positively contribute easily on their own time via the internet count me in.