Thread: Atheists

Originally Posted by coqauvin

ok, so please understand that everything you quoted there is to be read with eyes fully rolled.

Second, to say there's no finite link between atheism and science is to pay no attention to their culture. Who are the big names in bigtime atheism? Dawkins, Harris et al. Tell me there isn't a substitute set of rules to live by presented by them, in the name of something larger than them.

i know it's not what you want to hear, but, yes. i mean, those people are prescribing certain things, and advising others, but (1) mostly they DESCRIBE problems without telling anyone what to do about them, and (2) there is simply no atheist tome or single text or whatever that all our beliefs come from. you don't have to believe anything to be an atheist. you don't have to believe anything to be an atheist. you can believe in invisible unicorns and think that we are tiny sentient playthings living in a giant dollhouse owned by galaxy-sized space beings and still be an atheist. there are stupid atheists who know and care fuck all about science, but don't believe in god.

you're right that, mostly, a person's atheism will stem from his or her intuitive trust in observable facts and knowledge gained by scientific means, but-- so what? that's to be expected, isn't it? it doesn't mean you have to believe anything to be an atheist.

if you believe atheism necessarily comes with doctrine, you are factually wrong. you have fundamentally misunderstood the term.

Originally Posted by coqauvin

I note the distinct lack of doing something reprehensible in the name of science. The distancing your doing with this name is the same distancing moderate religious folk give to extremists with the same belief system. I don't think I need to name groups of people doing horrible things in the name of science.

you know, i was going to mention, say, oppenheimer there, but i reconsidered. he recoiled from all the horror his work caused. go on, name one person who's ever purposefully done something bad in the name of science.

people use science and technology in reprehensible ways all the time, but they don't act "in the name of science". they act out of greed or ambition or fear or hatred. you might say the same applies to religious evil people, only you know as well as me how easily i can find examples of people doing things "in the name of" religion -- whether there are any other substantive causal factors or not. here's your challenge, coq: find me an example, from real life, not sci fi, of someone purposefully doing something reprehensible in the name of science.

Originally Posted by coqauvin

I can't name the political factors that gave the extremists power because I've never studied that history, but I'm sure if you look it up, you'd find out. The social and cultural factors that lead to shielding molestors was probably protecting the image of the church and trying to stymie the subsequent loss of adherents, even though it is distinctly against several doctrines in Catholicism.

you don't think that's religiously motivated? then, at best, it's motivated by a twisted sense of needing to protect one's community based on shared religion. of course it's to protect the image of the church and stymie the loss of adherents. they do that so "christianity's" power is not dimished. how does that make it any better? how does it make it not what i said? if you're saying the people at the TOP, the very peak of the catholic faith, are "extremists", i'm saying that, again, you've misunderstood the word. the people at the very highest place in the church are criminals who are deeply entrenched in a system of aiding and abetting child abusers. this has been very well documented.

Originally Posted by coqauvin

What about the ones that do that without mentioning God? Because they aren't acceptable to the neighbourhood, or the family values or whatever group of virtues the children are apparently not fulfilling? Are you saying it's somehow worse because religion is involved?

i'm saying, you can't write off extremists as a loony fringe minority. they're all over the place. religion invites extremism, what with its "do this right or you'll go to hell" stuff. if i have a problem with religion, it's that. the main religions, at least, want you to be extremist. they ASK you to be. they want your whole life lived in service to your god's commands, even if your god's commands are horrifying and insane.

Originally Posted by coqauvin

What about specific Australians who make sweeping generalizations about population in an argument in the name of science and education? Let's not give into fallacies here.

If you're saying it's a form of abuse to limit someone's education on general topics, you must understand this is a 2-way street. Given the choice, I'm sure there's a few who will end up turning away from science and education anyways. Also, you do realize that instead of religious fanatics, this also applies to blue-collar workers, right?

huh? there's a difference between limiting someone's education and systematically, purposefully teaching them to be suspicious of any people or knowledge that contradicts their teachings. teaching them, for instance, that dinosaur bones are the work of the devil to fool us. remember, these people are a huge proportion of americans. not the majority, perhaps, but not a fringe minority. there are so many creationist museums that all do quite nicely for themselves.

and then there are the presidential candidates who say "you know there's something wrong in america when gays can serve openly in the military but kids can't say prayers in school".

Originally Posted by coqauvin

would you give this moral imperative to moderates who live in an oppressive regime?

uh... i guess not, no, but i'm not sure what you're getting at with the question.

Originally Posted by coqauvin

Cool. Can you give me a list of the passages so they are actually in some kind of context? I'm still falling back on my whole argument that this shit is all perpetrated by extremists who gain influence (fanaticism has this kind of effect), but these extremists have no voice when times are not so hard on a population

ok, i'm going to do a quick google search, so take or leave these passages. "if a man lies with another man, he is an abomination and should surely be put to death" is nearly verbatim, from memory. that ALONE should be enough for you. but i'll include a few:

"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT) (this one is just insane)

When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are about to enter and occupy, he will clear away many nations ahead of you: the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. These seven nations are all more powerful than you. When the LORD your God hands these nations over to you and you conquer them, you must completely destroy them. Make no treaties with them and show them no mercy. Do not intermarry with them, and don't let your daughters and sons marry their sons and daughters. They will lead your young people away from me to worship other gods. Then the anger of the LORD will burn against you, and he will destroy you. (Deuteronomy 7:1-4 NLT)

"Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'" (Bukhari 84:57)

“I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.” (Quran 8:12)

and more, but i have to go. i can find more if you want, later. you are free to look up context and see how it tempers any of the hateful, violent insanity of the passages themselves.