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    I have a book suggestion for you: Ishmael by Daniel Quinn.


    Read it.


    I'm curious...what is it about capitalism (Imperialism) that you love so much?
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    Journeyman Cocksmith Mr. E's Avatar
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    The fact that you think capitalism and imperialism are the same thing completely invalidates any point you may be trying to make. I mean, they aren't mutually exclusive, but they are not mutually implicit either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. E View Post
    The fact that you think capitalism and imperialism are the same thing completely invalidates any point you may be trying to make. I mean, they aren't mutually exclusive, but they are not mutually implicit either.
    What point am I trying to make? I asked him a question about his opinion, I fail to see how that is making any kind of point.


    And I also never claimed that Capitalism and Imperalism to be the same thing...but I can safely say that there is an extremely blurry line between American Capitalism and Imperialism
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kozzle View Post
    What point am I trying to make? I asked him a question about his opinion, I fail to see how that is making any kind of point.


    And I also never claimed that Capitalism and Imperalism to be the same thing...but I can safely say that there is an extremely blurry line between American Capitalism and Imperialism
    I was referring to the point you were trying to make with that book.

    But no, there is not an extremely blurry line between American capitalism and imperialism.That's just basic groundless anti-capitalist rhetoric. Until the borders of the American Empire start expanding, I'm not buying any of that rot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kozzle View Post
    What point am I trying to make? I asked him a question about his opinion, I fail to see how that is making any kind of point.


    And I also never claimed that Capitalism and Imperalism to be the same thing...but I can safely say that there is an extremely blurry line between American Capitalism and Imperialism
    Not even close. Although I am curious as to how you intend to support such an assertion.

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    quite

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. E View Post
    I was referring to the point you were trying to make with that book.

    But no, there is not an extremely blurry line between American capitalism and imperialism.That's just basic groundless anti-capitalist rhetoric. Until the borders of the American Empire start expanding, I'm not buying any of that rot.
    Just because the lines aren't officially laid down on the maps of the world doesn't mean they are not there. The American "Empire" is a consequence of being the most "wealthy" country in the world. It's very subtle, I don't see how you can really make yourself blind to it.

    And you still can't say my point is invalid as I have never made one to begin with. I don't see how you can fail at seeing this, all I did was recommend a book (which actually has nothing to do with capitalism, though it probably good in a narrow mind) and ask for his opinions on capitalism. You are just posting based on assumptions and anti-anti-capitalist (or would that just be some kind of radical capitalist?) thinking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kozzle View Post
    Just because the lines aren't officially laid down on the maps of the world doesn't mean they are not there. The American "Empire" is a consequence of being the most "wealthy" country in the world. It's very subtle, I don't see how you can really make yourself blind to it.

    And you still can't say my point is invalid as I have never made one to begin with. I don't see how you can fail at seeing this, all I did was recommend a book (which actually has nothing to do with capitalism, though it probably good in a narrow mind) and ask for his opinions on capitalism. You are just posting based on assumptions and anti-anti-capitalist (or would that just be some kind of radical capitalist?) thinking.
    Your offense is pretty hilarious. You wouldn't be posting a book suggestion unless you were trying to make a point. The specific point is irrelevant imo, that doesn't make it any more or less valid.

    But anyway, I know what you are getting at with you imperialism spiel, I just think it is a bunch of crap. First of all, in comparison to its size, America isn't even in the top five wealthiest nations. Secondly, if the most powerful nation in the world (I assume that is what you were going for with "wealthiest") was some socialist state you would never ever ever assert that it was imperialistic (yeah, I'm making assumptions, cause I'm awesome), which means that being the most powerful nation and being imperialistic are not mutually implicit even in your own opinion. Also, being anti-anti-capitalist doesn't make me any more radical than any other supporter of capitalism. In fact, I'm pretty sure it just makes me a supporter of capitalism.

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    American capitalism has led to a new form of semi-imperialism. If you look at the effect of certain huge American corporations (which the American economy needs to function) on small African/Asian countries and the effect of certain Government interventions on other countries then you will see what I mean. It's just not a traditional form of imperialism.

    Anyway that's the only two cents I will throw into this fountain of misinformation. I refuse to discuss things like this in detail unless it's in AI.

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    Merry fucking Christmas Atmosfear's Avatar
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    What do I like capitalism so much? It makes the polish on my silver spoon cheaper.

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    (Oh look at that, I made a cost-benefit assessment you can't do that with socialism because socialism ignores incentives!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atmosfear View Post
    (Oh look at that, I made a cost-benefit assessment you can't do that with socialism because socialism ignores incentives!)
    What kind of incentives are we talking about? Incentives to make profit but at what cost?


    The idea that capitalism breeds incentive is laughable, at best. Let people to their own devices and better technology will inevitably result (people who love science do research for this reason, not for money, money is simply a necessity that we need in our current system). What about technologies like the electrical car? The only reason such a thing isn't fully developed is because of the "incentive" bred by capitalism to maximize profit (there's no profit to be made in fully renewable energy is there?). Such dependence on fossil fuels is completely outdated and unecessary yet we can't free ourselves from its grasp because of the "incentives" provided by this great and awesome capitalism. The reality is, capitalism, at this point in our society, is only holding us back from greatly improving on current and new technologies.

    While capitalism is great in theory, its byproducts, and therefore its practical application, are less-than-desirable (hm, kind of sounds like communism now)
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    Okay thank you for economics 101 I recognize that capitalists prize allocative efficiency and socialists worship equity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kozzle View Post
    What kind of incentives are we talking about? Incentives to make profit but at what cost?


    The idea that capitalism breeds incentive is laughable, at best. Let people to their own devices and better technology will inevitably result (people who love science do research for this reason, not for money, money is simply a necessity that we need in our current system). What about technologies like the electrical car? The only reason such a thing isn't fully developed is because of the "incentive" bred by capitalism to maximize profit (there's no profit to be made in fully renewable energy is there?). Such dependence on fossil fuels is completely outdated and unecessary yet we can't free ourselves from its grasp because of the "incentives" provided by this great and awesome capitalism. The reality is, capitalism, at this point in our society, is only holding us back from greatly improving on current and new technologies.

    While capitalism is great in theory, its byproducts, and therefore its practical application, are less-than-desirable (hm, kind of sounds like communism now)
    lol, you couldn't be objective if they made a pill for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kozzle View Post
    anti-anti-capitalist (or would that just be some kind of radical capitalist?) thinking.
    one can easily dislike fervent, zealous anti-capitalists without being a capitalist oneself. It is a matter of how you present your arguments and the way you approach an issue.

    Personally, I dislike Michael Moore just as much as the Republican propaganda machine, and would not claim myself to be a part of either camp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. E View Post
    lol, you couldn't be objective if they made a pill for it.
    But of course you could. Much like if we exterminated all of the "inferior genes" you wouldn't be among them or if capitalism was upheld to its full potential you are one who deserves the best
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    lol okay right

    hey guiz let's switch over to a completely planned economy i mean it worked in china and russia.

    oh wait, that's right-- the government proved to suck at predicting what the needs of the people were and chronically overproduced some goods (say, steel) while under-producing other goods (say, wheat).


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    Quote Originally Posted by sycld View Post
    lol okay right

    hey guiz let's switch over to a completely planned economy i mean it worked in china and russia.

    oh wait, that's right-- the government proved to suck at predicting what the needs of the people were and chronically overproduced some goods (say, steel) while under-producing other goods (say, wheat).
    If any change were ever to take place it would have to be separate from communism or capitalism or else we will simply repeat the same mistakes endlessly
    Last edited by Kozzle; 12-12-2008 at 04:04 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kozzle View Post
    If any change were ever to take place to would have to be separate from communism or capitalism or else we will simply repeat the same mistakes endlessly
    Please to be writing thought in English?


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    Quote Originally Posted by sycld View Post
    Please to be writing thought in English?
    I'm sorry that I made a typo by putting "to" instead of "it". I will make sure never to commit such a sin ever again.
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    λεγιων ονομα μοι sycld's Avatar
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    Okay, I still don't know what you mean then.

    What change do you want? What system is better than Capitalism?


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    Quote Originally Posted by sycld View Post
    Okay, I still don't know what you mean then.

    What change do you want? What system is better than Capitalism?
    That's what we need to figure out. Capitalism is great for the people who aren't on the shitty end of the capitalism stick, but the big problem is there's so many more people on the shitty end than on the good end of it. Our way of life is fueled at the expense of countless others, and with the current trend we will most likely exploit the planet until it is no longer exploitable (dumping pollution, carelessly creating pollution and wasting resources when there is no need to anymore, such as fossil fuels).

    I'm not saying that there is any specific system that is better than what we are in because it hasn't been "created" yet. Communism was great in theory, extremely poor in practice. Capitalism is essentially the same way but most of us don't see it because WE live comfortably at the expense of others. Capitalism leaves no room for ethical practices because being ethical usually doesn't pay very well. If I tell you my product is ok but the next guy's product is way better I wouldn't be in business very long would I? In the end people get ripped off and others get fucked over (slavery in Africa, Asia etc.) just because we seek profit (on the business side) or seek to save money (on the consumer side).
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    Those are some sweeping generalizations. Capitalism is fundamentally at the whim of the market, so it is the market that determines all of that. Effectively, what you are saying is that people (customers) are unwilling to demand ethical behavior, environmental consciousness, etc from firms in the market.

    While tragedy of the commons is certainly a fact of any unregulated public good, there is a free-market solution to internalize negative externalities. The command-and-control techniques of socialist governments in the 70s (and, admittedly, the US as well) are being replaced in a rare step toward free market economy. This and the protection of property rights (the most important single requirement for trade) are the main reason for government; effectively, it prevents prisoner's dilemmas.

    I've already summed up your argument and it's a fundamental difference that no expounding of economic theory (or in your case, blathering) is going to change. I want allocative efficiency and you wan't equity.

    The difference is that my solution has a practical, real world-applicable means of achieving allocative efficiency, while your way expects unrealistic sacrifices and a shift in the entire paradigm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kozzle View Post
    What kind of incentives are we talking about? Incentives to make profit but at what cost?


    The idea that capitalism breeds incentive is laughable, at best. Let people to their own devices and better technology will inevitably result (people who love science do research for this reason, not for money, money is simply a necessity that we need in our current system). What about technologies like the electrical car? The only reason such a thing isn't fully developed is because of the "incentive" bred by capitalism to maximize profit (there's no profit to be made in fully renewable energy is there?).
    So then why doesn't socialist china make it?

    Tool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sycld View Post
    Okay, I still don't know what you mean then.

    What change do you want? What system is better than Capitalism?
    Grand Nihilism.


    The system in which we hi-jack a country with more then 100,000 nukes, fire them all in perfect unison and destroy the entire planet Earth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atmosfear View Post
    and you wan't equity.

    The difference is that my solution has a practical, real world-applicable means of achieving allocative efficiency, while your way expects unrealistic sacrifices and a shift in the entire paradigm.
    Paradigm shifts do happen, albeit rarely, but they do happen under certain conditions. If they didn't happen the world would still be completely ran by the religious institutions because everyone would believe that this is the highest power. I don't expect any real sacrifices on anyone's part (except maybe to drop one's beliefs in a completely monetary-based system). There are ways to have a healthy medium except we haven't found those mediums. At the rate we are going do you think we can sustain our current system? It's only a matter of time before pollution is too great to face or that we run out of certain natural resources or what have you. It's not the system per se that is flawed, the problems we face are but symptoms of the cause: the consumer mindset that we are endowed with.

    How can anyone expect ethical changes when it costs money to be ethical? The vast majority of the population is stuck in a financial situation where they can't afford to be ethical without considerably lowering their standards of living while we have the fat cats at the top who don't give a damn about any of it. THIS is the part that bothers me. We have the technology and resources to provide a decent standard of living to practically everyone; but that can't happen with a system like this ran by humans (read the book i suggested; it isn't the system we live in that is fucking us over but rather our mindset towards these issues).

    Solutions are possible, we just aren't exploring them because most of the people who have the resources to accomplish anything are only worried about 1 thing: profit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sion View Post
    So then why doesn't socialist china make it?

    Tool.
    Probably because China is not exactly at the forefront of technological innovation. And (correct me if I'm wrong on this one) but I believe patent laws essentially apply to everyone in the business world.


    If all you can do is flame in a forum that isn't flames then I can only consider you to be either:
    a) Not intelligent enough to form coherent arguments, or
    b) Someone who really doesn't belong here
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kozzle View Post
    Probably because China is not exactly at the forefront of technological innovation.
    your saying china doesn't have enough technology to make an electric car?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sion View Post
    your saying china doesn't have enough technology to make an electric car?
    Having technology and being at the front of technological innovation are 2 completely different things.


    Unless I am sadly mistaken on this, China is nowhere near the top of this ladder. I looked it up quickly and found this article (I do not know how valid or reliable these are, but they do support my claim) http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/5954

    According to this list China doesn't even rank top 15.

    Sure China is efficitient at PRODUCTION (even though quality usually sucks) they are far from being innovative in the realm of technology.
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    Kozzle is correct....in a sense - in terms of its export sophistication index, China doesn't compare to the likes of Japan/US etc.

    In any case, eventually environmental degradation eventually has to affect profit levels (agricultural output in China is tipped to decrease by 10% or something like that by 2050) so I see no reason why counter-measures should fall outside normal incentive-based development.

    Oh, and the midway point between Capitalism and Socialism is usually referred to as the Third Way - championed by the likes of Tony Blair, Bill Clinton etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kozzle View Post
    Paradigm shifts do happen, albeit rarely, but they do happen under certain conditions. If they didn't happen the world would still be completely ran by the religious institutions because everyone would believe that this is the highest power. I don't expect any real sacrifices on anyone's part (except maybe to drop one's beliefs in a completely monetary-based system). There are ways to have a healthy medium except we haven't found those mediums. At the rate we are going do you think we can sustain our current system? It's only a matter of time before pollution is too great to face or that we run out of certain natural resources or what have you. It's not the system per se that is flawed, the problems we face are but symptoms of the cause: the consumer mindset that we are endowed with.

    How can anyone expect ethical changes when it costs money to be ethical? The vast majority of the population is stuck in a financial situation where they can't afford to be ethical without considerably lowering their standards of living while we have the fat cats at the top who don't give a damn about any of it. THIS is the part that bothers me. We have the technology and resources to provide a decent standard of living to practically everyone; but that can't happen with a system like this ran by humans (read the book i suggested; it isn't the system we live in that is fucking us over but rather our mindset towards these issues).

    Solutions are possible, we just aren't exploring them because most of the people who have the resources to accomplish anything are only worried about 1 thing: profit.
    I think the point is more along the lines that a paradigm shift of that magnitude (re-ordering an entire culture and way of living) could never happen overnight, short of catastrophe. Even in that case, it is still not affecting a full country of, say, 200 million people, but rather the survivors who now have to face an environment that is suddenly alien to them. Because they then have to readjust to a situation, they will likely make vast changes because their initial way of life is no longer viable.

    So you can expound on theories that would, if put into practice, make some kind of utopian ideal, but words are words: cheap. The ideas contained within can be powerful, absolutely true, but unless they take hold in mankind, their entire effect is null and they may as well not even exist.

    So, we make compromise changes to a system that doesn't work over a long period of time, baby steps changing the way people (who thrive on routine) live to one that is more beneficial in the long run. The only way these theories could have an application would be as a long-term, overarching goal, but that is impossible to pull off successfully over the course of our lives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrTroy View Post
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    Or you can skip over boring posts and make a thread more to your interests.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kozzle View Post
    capitalism (Imperialism)
    This thread should have ended here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Think View Post
    This thread should have ended here.
    ground that has been fertilized has been sown with shit [/dr phil]

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    Merry fucking Christmas Atmosfear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kozzle View Post
    Paradigm shifts do happen, albeit rarely, but they do happen under certain conditions. If they didn't happen the world would still be completely ran by the religious institutions because everyone would believe that this is the highest power. I don't expect any real sacrifices on anyone's part (except maybe to drop one's beliefs in a completely monetary-based system). There are ways to have a healthy medium except we haven't found those mediums. At the rate we are going do you think we can sustain our current system? It's only a matter of time before pollution is too great to face or that we run out of certain natural resources or what have you. It's not the system per se that is flawed, the problems we face are but symptoms of the cause: the consumer mindset that we are endowed with.
    The reason government moved from a religious to secular basis is because the early adopters of secular governments had a competitive advantage. You want to propose changes that will devastate the early adopters... what kind of a fuckwit would possibly want to sacrifice his standard of living for that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kozzle View Post
    How can anyone expect ethical changes when it costs money to be ethical? The vast majority of the population is stuck in a financial situation where they can't afford to be ethical without considerably lowering their standards of living while we have the fat cats at the top who don't give a damn about any of it. THIS is the part that bothers me. We have the technology and resources to provide a decent standard of living to practically everyone; but that can't happen with a system like this ran by humans (read the book i suggested; it isn't the system we live in that is fucking us over but rather our mindset towards these issues).
    Shows a general lack of understanding of current best practices in business.

    Stakeholder management is currently one of the most important fields of study in modern business and the companies that have done the best job with it are the ones who are consistently performing well. Compare the worldwide success of Coca-Cola to Pepsi; the major difference in the companies is that Coca-Cola is consistently heralded as one of the leaders in CSR. Even Wal-mart has been forced to integrate this process and consider its ethical and philanthropic responsibilities because the market is demanding this behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kozzle View Post
    Solutions are possible, we just aren't exploring them because most of the people who have the resources to accomplish anything are only worried about 1 thing: profit.
    At this point, I have to ask, Kozzle, what type of expertise do you have on any of these subjects? I can't tell if you're choosing to ignore vital portions of economic theory or if you're just uneducated and either way it's infuriating if not impossible to have a discussion.

    Kuznet's Curve hurfdurf thread over

    (and no I am not going to entertain discussion of it based on what you read on Wikipedia)

  38. #38
    Official of Douchebaggery Kozzle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atmosfear View Post

    At this point, I have to ask, Kozzle, what type of expertise do you have on any of these subjects? I can't tell if you're choosing to ignore vital portions of economic theory or if you're just uneducated and either way it's infuriating if not impossible to have a discussion.
    I'm not going to pretend that I have a background in economics or business because those are fields that I don't think will make much of a significantly positive difference in the world we are entering. I am not a huge fan of monetaryism (sp?), so no, I probably don't have as much of an education in economics as you do. My education is in Psychology and behavior, and what I do know is that incentive for self-gain is extremely powerful (mostly because we have a system that promotes individual profit), generally even more powerful than the incentive to help those who truly need it. And to further answer your question, I would not consider myself (or probably most people here, for that matter) "experts" on any of these subjects. We are all here to learn to a lesser or greater degree (unless one is too stubborn to admit when they are wrong or what have you); I am only in my 3rd year of my degree so I am far from being an expert in any sense of the word, but like I said, we are here to learn and learn we shall?

    My primary concern isn't even helping those who need it, that comes second. My main concern here (it is well illustrated in the book I suggested but I doubt you will be reading it, it's very short though I will say) is that we are currently doing a poor job of living in a symbiotic way with the environment/planet. We pretty much selfishly take what we want largely without any REAL regards to future repercussions until it is almost too late to do so. I sincerely doubt (though I'm sure I could be wrong on this) that the fat cat CEO's wearing 10 000$ suits really give much of a shit about the environment etc. until it affects their income (there are obviously some exceptions to the rule I'm sure) but I'm talking about the big picture here. We created a world that is largely a free-for-all of survival (which I suppose is relatively common in nature) but one of the side effects is a disregard for the wellbeing of the whole rather than the individual (and there's a difference between the government and multi-national corporations in this regard I'm sure).


    I'm surprised you haven't said anything about my comment on the electric battery patents and what-have-you. How does capitalism account for this?
    Last edited by Kozzle; 12-14-2008 at 01:40 PM.
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    A very manly muppet Mad Pino Rage's Avatar
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    Kozzle: What is your gruff with people living extravagantly while others live modest or meager lives?
    Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.
    Albert Einstein

  40. #40
    Merry fucking Christmas Atmosfear's Avatar
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    Kuznet's Curve applies to the environment as well. I already mentioned to government's role in preventing tragedy of the commons is necessary, though its policies must allow the free market to reach allocative efficiency. Like most who have never read Solow's criticism of sustainable development, you seem to think that the environment will continue degrading into a meaningless waste and our children will revert to being savages because there will be no technological advances to avert the use of natural resources oh no none at all it's not like we developed inorganic substitutes for organic products or anything, right?

    I was doing you a favor by ignoring the electric car, but since you want to press the issue: What about the electric car? It's a stupid fucking sci-fi invention and it wasn't practical in the 80s and it still isn't practical now. Ignoring for a moment that you seem to think it is a good idea for the government to force our corporations to build a product with no market and no infrastructure or global feasibility, production of electricity produces far more damage to the environment than fucking deisel engines much less unleaded gasoline. In the 80s, it was even worse because we didn't retrofit scrubbers into coal-fired plants. Only nearsighted fuckwits with no understanding whatsoever of the energy industry, the laws of thermodynamics, or the environment think electric cars are a feasible solution in a country that has halted expansion of nuclear power. Charging an electric car is just dumping guaranteed mutual destruction into the atmosphere while CO2 is at least not directly detrimental to human health.

    Next you are going to tell me that the cleanest energy source is solar energy because it would be fucking fantastic if we could spend the next 100 years living in the shade or some other non-sensical piece of shit liberal yellow journalistic shithead solution.

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