Somali justice in action!
Here.Dozens of men reportedly pelted the 13-year-old Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow with rocks in a stadium packed with 1,000 spectators in Kismayo.
Amnesty International said the Islamic militia in charge of the city had accused her of adultery after she reported that three men had raped her.
Initial reports said Duhulow was 23, but her father told Amnesty that she was just 13
This thread is now for debating why Islam is no worse than Christianity.
Go.
I am one of the (apparently) few Western atheists who grew up a Christianity but who is not bigoted against it. I would never say that Christianity is "worse" than Islam.
PANDAS
If you don't like them, then get the fuck out.
Originally Posted by Think
seconded.
Extreme Islam is worse then extreme Christianity ever was.
Or rather, I'm should say instead that I for one am going to refrain from comparing and ranking religions based on how "bad" or "good" they are.
But I will qualify that by saying... there's just something different about Islam when compared to the modern forms of other religions, and I don't know if it's merely the contemporary Islamic culture or if it's something inherent to the religion.
PANDAS
If you don't like them, then get the fuck out.
Islam in some countries is simmilar to that of medieval christian Europe. In Europe, common sense has gave christianity a bit of a kicking, the same cannot be said for Islam in parts of the Middle East.
Yeah, I don't buy this argument for a number of reasons.
Let me address the argument as commonly stated: "Islam is in its 'medieval' phase, just as Christianity was some 500+ years ago."
First of all, the Middle Ages are undeservedly maligned, seeing as the true roots of Western civilization came out of the Middle Ages and not any earlier period of time, and the developments of the Renaissance were just a natural off-growth of Medieval thought and not sudden and disjointed return to Classical thought whatsoever as some people have tried to revise history to reflect.
Secondly, Islam is not a new religion. It is around 1300 years old, and unlike Christianity, it did not take nearly as long for Islam to mature and gain hegemony.
Finally, humanization has been a global force and liberty has spread throughout the globe. Its adoption has not been merely national or even regional. All nations and regions have tried to resist it to larger or lesser degrees, and its influence is felt to different degrees in different places, but I would argue that you can find the strongest holdouts in terms of resisting humanization and liberalism for any other reason aside from pure greed or tyranny in Islamic nations. Even in liberal nations, and even among many (though not all) of the more educated followers, Muslims vigorously resist adoption of more moderate forms of their religion, unlike followers of any other religion. Why is this? I can't help but believe that there is something different about Islam, and again I cannot tell if it is something to do with simply its contemporary culture or if it's something intrinsic to the religion.
PANDAS
If you don't like them, then get the fuck out.
You really should study your history more...
Here's a starter.
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade"]Crusades - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:SiegeofAntioch.jpeg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/SiegeofAntioch.jpeg/220px-SiegeofAntioch.jpeg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/d/d3/SiegeofAntioch.jpeg/220px-SiegeofAntioch.jpeg[/ame]
Have fun!
I'm not talking in numbers, I'm talking in barbaricity.
If Islam had the POWER to crusade the western world, do you honestly think that they would pass that chance by in favor of greater peace?
The crusades killed people for being of opposing relegious belief, fabricated offenses, and for minor offenses.
Islam is killing people of opposing relegious belief, for fabricated offenses and for miniscule offenses, on top of killing people for the way they dress.
Tomatoes and Oranges bro, but when it comes down to it, they're both acidic as fuck.
Go Amnesty International!
It IS wrong. Those people are so assbackwards about stuff like that. If anyone tried that shit here, theyd be locked up in an asylum.
You do realise that all us westerners are completely wrong according to Somalis right?
Well, you're acting as though democracy and liberalism are only restricted to Western nations. The fact is that nowadays the movement towards democracy and liberalism is a global movement. Nearly every nation on Earth has been pressured to at least give lip service to these ideals, and nations as diverse and far-flung as India, Japan, South Africa, Argentina, and Mali have either achieved very democratic and liberal government or are truly striving to do so.
The Middle East is the only region of the world with such uniformly strong resistance to modern ideals and such strong and cohesive movements to retain the archaic institutions and values that oppose liberalism and democracy. All this is because of the embrace of fundamentalist Islam.
As a matter of comparison, let's look at India versus Pakistan. Until 1947, India was a unified colony under the British. Thanks to that bastard Jinnah and Gandhi's willingness to bend to his demands, Pakistan became a separate republic from India especially for all of the subcontinent's Muslims. Most of India's Muslims moved up to Pakistan, and most of Pakistan's non-Muslims moved to India. It involved the displacement of 17.9 million people, the largest and fastest transfer of people in human history.
Now let's see how each of these states evolved. India is strongly democratic and strongly secular, with a great deal of respect for human rights, though of course there are large human rights problems that still persist. Nonetheless, even villagers have a sense of empowerment and use the political leverage afforded to them by the government to benefit themselves and their community. In addition, liberal thought and tolerance is radiating out from the urban centers and finding its way into the more rural parts of India. And, as always, people of all religions, both Hindu and non-Hindu alike, more or less live next to each other in peace.
On the other hand, Pakistan's movement for democracy has never really gotten off the ground. The central government cannot really exercise control over the population, much of which is militant and fundamentalist, and the western part of the state has become a safe haven for the Taliban. The central courts routinely and unselfconsciously make audacious decisions that flagrantly violate human rights with little or no explanation given except that it is what is demanded of Islam (according to them, anyways.)
Why is Pakistan, which is ~97% Muslim, so different from India, which is ~80.5% Hindu?
Last edited by sycld; 11-03-2008 at 06:57 PM.
PANDAS
If you don't like them, then get the fuck out.
Actually, good points.
Europe used to be like the middle east in regards to opposition to progress, but something changed and the power of the church lessened. What was it about Europe that allowed for this? Was christianity more accomodating for progressive change than Islam? That maybe. Was it something cultural in Europe that allowed for it? Maybe. I think there might be a bit of both, but I think we can both agree that Islam doesn't come out of this looking too good. What we were essentially debating was how crippling an influence Islam was, I wasn't too sure that it was Islam alone...but...
And Dr Baltar, we are not interfering, check the news, there is nothing about a bunch of internet geeks making attempts to change muslim culture, because all we are doing is criticising. Call it caulture all you want, but it is fair to prepend it with barbaric or backwards, because the way humans are treated in some of those countries, especially women, is just horrific. It doesn't matter if Islam justifies it, all this proves that Islam is wrong when it comes to treating human beings.
Why do you keep referring to Europe? In the past, what made the rest of the word any better or worse than Europe, and why do you act like it's only Europe that has become democratized and liberal?
Last edited by sycld; 11-04-2008 at 02:21 PM.
PANDAS
If you don't like them, then get the fuck out.
Wow. I'd love to see what they'd do to the desperate housewives.
She was probably wearing a slutty looking cheerleader outfit and had it coming.
uhh looks like i stumbled in to wrong thread
Does anybody happen to know the population in these Islamic countries, and if there are more men than women? A lot of the time these large inaccuracies of logic in regard to how to treat the opposite sex are (if not formed out of) solidified by a gender NUMBERS inequality. To support my argument, the women's movement in the U.S. took place after WWII, when the amount of men was down because we'd just been through a war, and the Spartans (yes those guys from the movie 300, only not.) women had a great amount of rights for their time, because as babies women are healthier, so there were more women then men. It's a question of dyadic and structural power, and it repeats throughout history.
I'm not saying what happened is right (I think it's sick), but just offering up an idea. Also, I hope that people see the ideals that these people hold as wrong, and not necessarily the person. Too often they become intermixed, and that's when there's crusades to clean up the 'dirt of the earth' type of stuff.
sycld, I don't know what Baltar's extended feelings are on moral relativism, but I am not calling him a racist or implying that he views Western morals as objective but "brown" morals as relative. That would be a confusing stance, to be sure.
Rather, what I mean is that a lot of these "moral relativists" have an easier time with morals being different from their own among people that look different from themselves. When it comes to people that look like themselves, then suddenly that stance of moral relativism gets thrown out the window. That's all.
PANDAS
If you don't like them, then get the fuck out.
we need AI back.
If this were in AI, then this thread would have been filled with more stupid than it is even now.
PANDAS
If you don't like them, then get the fuck out.
sycld loses because pakistan isnt in the middle east
Somalia isn't in the Middle East either. I was discussing Islamic states in general, even though I referred to the Middle East in particular. I wasn't being clear enough.
PANDAS
If you don't like them, then get the fuck out.
You may also find these enlightening:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/inquisition
Children's Crusade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Gustave_dore_crusades_the_childrens_crusade.j pg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ed/Gustave_dore_crusades_the_childrens_crusade.jpg/220px-Gustave_dore_crusades_the_childrens_crusade.jpg"@@ AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/e/ed/Gustave_dore_crusades_the_childrens_crusade.jpg/220px-Gustave_dore_crusades_the_childrens_crusade.jpg
Last edited by tendrilsfor20; 11-07-2008 at 11:10 AM.
I apologise for not having the time to come back to this thread, but still, I stand by my previous opinion:
The morals of other cultures differ from our own and I don't believe that we have any right to interfere with somethign that does not concern us.
that's good, the way you thought to vindicate your previous statements by waiting a long time then repeating them without elaboration.
So we have no right to interfere when other cultures engage in genocide?
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